A Question on Gemini

[letterworks]

This might be better answered in the premium side, but I am starting here as my other post on this subject there has about 7 views and I think 4 of them were me!

I'm considering getting (my business) into more serious dimensional letter work to the trade. Either buying an existing supplier locally or getting the equipment to prep and paint. Right now I dabble in this work but not on the finishing side at all. So, before any decision on the business expansion, I am both learning some skills and checking the competitive landscape.

The competitive landscape, as you all know, is dominated by Gemini. Gemini has never wanted me as a reseller as I have cut letters for 20+ years, so I am ignorant of their wholesale pricing. And, to be clear, I am not exactly asking for that here.

What I AM curious about is how the wholesale price relates to the "named alike" reseller sites that are out there. Those sites are just buying and reselling, and I'd guess drop shipping the letters too, so I can't imagine the margins are super high. But knowing if they are typically +30% from wholesale or +200% of wholesale would be helpful as I could work backwards to get a feel for where Gemini's pricing is for different products.

I'm still working on what my internal costs would be and I have been told by customers that I don't need to beat or even meet Gemini on price to get business but I don't really need to get into something new if I end up 25% high compared to the dominant player. I would welcome any insight!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Why can't you sign up for Gemini?

 

[letterworks]

Well, beats me and I certainly haven't tried recently. We were told at the time we were competitors and so no account. And, I haven't really cared much for the 15 years after that.

Bear in mind that unlike the many sign shops with a CNC I'm an acrylic shop that just does letters on the side for local shops in a rush/cheap. I have never done finishing work.

Also, Gemini Canada might be a little different that the USA side on how freely they hand out accounts.

But if you are in this situation looking at buying out a "to the trade business" then getting an idea of how that businesses competition prices becomes very useful. Could I misrepresent myself and get an account? Maybe, but that's not how I work.

I have customers that I can ask but that would be for specific jobs, and I'm hoping to get a broader picture even though it would be a less accurate.

I should note that my own assumption is they are closer to 1.3x markup, as that seems good money for flipping letters. But if they 2x the wholesale price then the math is different. For a $20 retail on one of those sites, wholesale is $15.xx at 1.3x and only $10 at 2x, meaning I don't have $5 anymore to paid for the labour / machines / paint, etc.

Again, I don't know where my own pricing might be yet. But I don't want to spend 100k+ buying a business and find that it's not competitive. Er, change that to I don't want to spend 100k+ and find I can't make it competitive.....it is probably NOT competitive right now.

Greg

 

[visual800]

This might be better answered in the premium side, but I am starting here as my other post on this subject there has about 7 views and I think 4 of them were me!

I'm considering getting (my business) into more serious dimensional letter work to the trade. Either buying an existing supplier locally or getting the equipment to prep and paint. Right now I dabble in this work but not on the finishing side at all. So, before any decision on the business expansion, I am both learning some skills and checking the competitive landscape.

The competitive landscape, as you all know, is dominated by Gemini. Gemini has never wanted me as a reseller as I have cut letters for 20+ years, so I am ignorant of their wholesale pricing. And, to be clear, I am not exactly asking for that here.

What I AM curious about is how the wholesale price relates to the "named alike" reseller sites that are out there. Those sites are just buying and reselling, and I'd guess drop shipping the letters too, so I can't imagine the margins are super high. But knowing if they are typically +30% from wholesale or +200% of wholesale would be helpful as I could work backwards to get a feel for where Gemini's pricing is for different products.

I'm still working on what my internal costs would be and I have been told by customers that I don't need to beat or even meet Gemini on price to get business but I don't really need to get into something new if I end up 25% high compared to the dominant player. I would welcome any insight!

It may be because Im a lazy a$$ but I had to read your comment 3 times before understanding what exactly you were getting at....Im still not sure Im grasping. As far as Gemini NOT allowing you to become a reseller since you have cut dimensional letter makes absolutely no sense at all. I would need to her their reason for that. Gemini already allows a price cut to the seller (you) and tells you what to charge your client for what you get. I deal with another copany that does every Gemini does except for plastic molded letters, which is fine because I despise them

 

[letterworks]

It may be because Im a lazy a$$ but I had to read your comment 3 times before understanding what exactly you were getting at....Im still not sure Im grasping. As far as Gemini NOT allowing you to become a reseller since you have cut dimensional letter makes absolutely no sense at all. I would need to her their reason for that. Gemini already allows a price cut to the seller (you) and tells you what to charge your client for what you get. I deal with another copany that does every Gemini does except for plastic molded letters, which is fine because I despise them

I understand all that, but I have described what they told me. I also don't think it's unreasonable to refuse to sell to your competition, so it never was a point I argued about.

I'm not a sign shop so it was not a big deal. If I was a sign shop then I would have tried harder.

Since now I'm looking at a business that is their competition (although very small), it didn't seem like a time to try an apply again.

I'm hoping instead that I can just get a rough idea on how to work backwards to wholesale prices from published prices.

I also have to say, allowing like 5 sites that have "Gemini" in their names to just resell letters online seems a lot like Gemini having their cake (trade sales), and eating it too (retail sales).

Greg

Sent from my Nokia 3.4 using Tapatalk

 

[bowtievega]

So Gemini refused to give you an account because you make your own letters? That seems off somehow. Why would they care if you make your own letters? What sign company hasn't made their own letters at some point? Gemini tries to provide a service that will try and get you to sub out your letters to them instead of making them yourself. Its not supposed to be an all or nothing setup and i would think Gemini would tell you the same thing. We make as much of our own stuff as humanly possible but still order things from Gemini occasionally. When we are buried in fab we might get them to fab some RPC cans for us so we can fit our own plastic and LEDs. We don't need to buy the entire letter, just what we need. I would give them a call and keep pressing them for an account, sounds like you are in position to make use of their services!

 

[spectrum maine]

gemini is off their game lately. waiting almost 4 weeks for a bronze plaque quote after 4 requests....

 

[unclebun]

So Gemini refused to give you an account because you make your own letters? That seems off somehow. Why would they care if you make your own letters? What sign company hasn't made their own letters at some point? Gemini tries to provide a service that will try and get you to sub out your letters to them instead of making them yourself. Its not supposed to be an all or nothing setup and i would think Gemini would tell you the same thing. We make as much of our own stuff as humanly possible but still order things from Gemini occasionally. When we are buried in fab we might get them to fab some RPC cans for us so we can fit our own plastic and LEDs. We don't need to buy the entire letter, just what we need. I would give them a call and keep pressing them for an account, sounds like you are in position to make use of their services!

He said he wasn't a sign shop, like you are. He just makes letters and sells them to sign shops.

 

[Chris Keena]

I believe Gemini's msrp is 60%. If the client thinks that's too much, then I offer a cheaper solution that we can do in house. Which wouldn't include any paint finishing. I love Gemini, they've always done great work over the past 20 years. They're a little slow in quoting and flipping quotes to order confirmations, but very up front about it. Short handed and shipping delays. The same old crap everyone's dealing with. A co-worker of mine was fooled by one of the knock off named websites. They were slightly higher in cost, but nothing crazy.

 

[Chris Keena]

gemini is off their game lately. waiting almost 4 weeks for a bronze plaque quote after 4 requests....

Yea, very slow the past few months.

 

[DPD]

gemini is off their game lately. waiting almost 4 weeks for a bronze plaque quote after 4 requests....

Spoke to Gemini about a week ago. I understand that its not so much a materials supply problem but instead its a people problem. They are having issues finding workers. I've started adding extra lead time to jobs.

 

[DPD]

I believe Gemini's msrp is 60%. If the client thinks that's too much, then I offer a cheaper solution that we can do in house. Which wouldn't include any paint finishing. I love Gemini, they've always done great work over the past 20 years. They're a little slow in quoting and flipping quotes to order confirmations, but very up front about it. Short handed and shipping delays. The same old crap everyone's dealing with. A co-worker of mine was fooled by one of the knock off named websites. They were slightly higher in cost, but nothing crazy.

I came upon one of those knockoff name sites years ago. I had a difficult time distinguishing the knockoff from the real Gemini - it took some investigation and a call to gemini to sort it out. I called Gemini because I thought they may be selling retail using the knockoff site.

 

[spectrum maine]

I came upon one of those knockoff name sites years ago. I had a difficult time distinguishing the knockoff from the real Gemini - it took some investigation and a call to gemini to sort it out. I called Gemini because I thought they may be selling retail using the knockoff site.

the knockoff site is out of mass. i met the owner and i think they owned a gemini signs first. he does sell a ton of real gemini letters

 

[ChaseO]

i contacted one of the "fake" Gemini's one time by accident and they were honest enough to let me know I made a mistake so I was able to try again.

 

[letterworks]

i contacted one of the "fake" Gemini's one time by accident and they were honest enough to let me know I made a mistake so I was able to try again.

I've noticed that their websites are a little more open about that now versus a few years back. They note sign shops should contact Gemini directly.

Sent from my Nokia 3.4 using Tapatalk

 

[DPD]

the knockoff site is out of mass. i met the owner and i think they owned a gemini signs first. he does sell a ton of real gemini letters

When I called Gemini, I was told that they sued because of the use of their name and lost the case because it was twin brothers that owned the company i.e. the zodiac sign for twins is Gemini. Go figure.

 

[spectrum maine]

When I called Gemini, I was told that they sued because of the use of their name and lost the case because it was twin brothers that owned the company i.e. the zodiac sign for twins is Gemini. Go figure.

i met 1 of the brothers and he told me that they were there first. they sell an ass-ton of plastic letters

 

[spectrum maine]

I am all done with Gemini. Had almost 3 months of runaround on a small bronze plaque. Every excuse in the book... after i received a detailed quote request and waited a week they told me they didnt have me in the system, so i sent my email copy of their sheet, wait 10 more days they tell me they need artwork which i sent 3 times. Finally i pulled some strings and contacted the regional rep. He very quickly(?) got the order generated. then it 3 days to produce an invoice. after all said & done they said they couldnt promise a 3 week turnaround. Customer called matthews and they promised 2 weeks. lost an $1800 job and a dozen hours fooling around with these clowns. at least 10 emails with no response. and yes it was the real gemini portal (my password was 4 dogs ago to show how long a customer i am) The worst customer service i have experienced in 30 years of making signs.