Advice Needed: How to Best Offer Services to Local Sign Shops

[rossmosh]

Let me first preface this post by saying I'm not soliciting business on here. I'm simply looking for advice.

I own a 4x8 CNC, decent sized laser cutter/engraver, small laser cutter/engraver, and some other equipment many sign shops don't have. I'd like to offer my services to local sign shops. I've made a list of all the sign shops within about 10-15 miles of our shop. That may not sound like a large area, but this is NJ and that area includes about 30 shops. At this point, I'm not exactly sure how to go about approaching these shops.

1. Would you prefer to be contacted via email, phone, or face to face? If face to face, is a pop by acceptable or do you want to have a "meeting" scheduled?
2. If we spoke, what would you be concerned with? What would you ask me?
3. Pricing is important. To me, custom work requires custom pricing. I just don't think a price sheet works with this kind of work. How would you feel about having to have every job quoted out?
4. Most of my experience is dealing with end users, essentially retail work. I send out work to be done by vendors fairly regularly and it works out well for me. I've had mediocre results working for the trade. To be honest, most of the issues were down to pricing (I was "too expensive"). How do you make it work when you outsource this type of work where everyone is happy?
5. Deliver/Pickup: What are your expectations?
6. Sheet goods: Do you think it's best for someone like me to provide the material or do you prefer to supply the material? I'm open to both, but I also am well aware there are pros and cons to both.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

Are you going to set up as.wholesale only, or are you going to have your own set of customers?

If your setting up as a wholesaler to the trade, then you will need to carry materials so your clients can call, order what they need, and have it out the next day, and be cheaper than say, Harbor or Grimco.

If you are not planning on setting up as wholesale, and your offering your equipment to other local shops to "fill in the gaps", I wouldn't hold your breath as far as picking up any extra work. Most shops may be friendly, but to sub out work to another shop pretty much does not happen. Most shops are going to think that another shop is attempting to steal clients. You have to remember that customers are not loyal, and will jump ship at any little inclination of better price or better service, and most shops are going to do what it takes to keep their own customers, unless the customer is a royal pain, and they are the ones that will probably be referred to you.

 

[fixtureman]

What I did was made a bunch of engraved signs with the sign company's name on it and did a few sintra letters put my name on the back and gave them to each sign company

 

[Fred Weiss]

Let me first preface this post by saying I'm not soliciting business on here. I'm simply looking for advice.

I own a 4x8 CNC, decent sized laser cutter/engraver, small laser cutter/engraver, and some other equipment many sign shops don't have. I'd like to offer my services to local sign shops. I've made a list of all the sign shops within about 10-15 miles of our shop. That may not sound like a large area, but this is NJ and that area includes about 30 shops. At this point, I'm not exactly sure how to go about approaching these shops.

I have twice over the last 32 years established a wholesale to the trade business. The first was cut vinyl lettering starting in 1983 and the second was Gerber Edge printing starting in 1998. The first experience took me from a one man retail sign business to a dedicated wholesale to the trade jobber with five employees and more than 1,000 regular clients. The second took me from lackluster results wholesaling back to a retail sign business offering wholesale work on the side.

1. Would you prefer to be contacted via email, phone, or face to face? If face to face, is a pop by acceptable or do you want to have a "meeting" scheduled?

Keep in mind that a wholesale customer is much different than a retail one. They are usually looking for a part of a job and not a complete solution. And they are often looking for a regular relationship and are willing to get familiar with your products and services on a detailed level. As such, how that relationship begins is of high importance. You must be viewed as a reliable, quality resource whose products and services can be used to improve what the sign company can supply their customers both quality wise and profit wise. My rule here is the less I do to get the client to contact me, the better is the result. In other words, the best advertising is word of mouth or my work being seen by others and impressing them enough to make contact. The more I do to reach out to make initial contact, the worse will be the results. My suggestion in reaching out would be a nice quality letter and/or brochure sent by first class mail.

2. If we spoke, what would you be concerned with? What would you ask me?

What can you do for me? What will it cost and will I be able to determine that without contacting you for a quote?

3. Pricing is important. To me, custom work requires custom pricing. I just don't think a price sheet works with this kind of work. How would you feel about having to have every job quoted out?

I think it's the kiss of death. You should have either set pricing or easy to calculate formulas for most of what you offer supplemented by quotations for those items that are truly custom. If I need some cut out letters using 12" caps in a given letter style, I should be able to find it prices in 1/8" acrylic and in 1/4" acrylic without needing it quoted. If I need a logo measuring 24" x 36" in any given material, there should be a square inch or foot rate that I can calculate it from without asking or waiting for a quote.

4. Most of my experience is dealing with end users, essentially retail work. I send out work to be done by vendors fairly regularly and it works out well for me. I've had mediocre results working for the trade. To be honest, most of the issues were down to pricing (I was "too expensive"). How do you make it work when you outsource this type of work where everyone is happy?

If you are hearing "too expensive" then you haven't gotten to get the client to understand the value of what you offer.

Years ago I had a hand painter come in for a quote on a job in vinyl that involved a letter style he couldn't handle. It was for two truck doors. The quote was $75.00 for two readings of ready to apply high performance vinyl. His response was that $75.00 was what he was planning to sell the job for. I convinced him to put the job at risk by quoting it as follows:

Double the materials = $150.00
Shop rate for all time spent selling, ordering and installing the job (we figured 4 hours at $35.00 an hour ... It was the 1980's) = $140.00
Total = $290.00

The next day he returned and placed the order. He was in total disbelief that the client had OK'd the job and now he was going to make $215.00 in profit for half a day of work instead of $75.00 for painting it.

5. Deliver/Pickup: What are your expectations?

I expect that you will offer delivery, pickup or shipping. I think you should consider setting up for shipping and look beyond just your local market for clients. Set up a good website as your primary presentation and marketing tool or look at selling through stores at Amazon, Etsy, eBay etc. for non-custom products of your own design.

6. Sheet goods: Do you think it's best for someone like me to provide the material or do you prefer to supply the material? I'm open to both, but I also am well aware there are pros and cons to both.

My preference was to stock the materials we offered. It was a rare exception for us to order in a special material ... which we would do if the job was worth it. If the customer supplied the material, the savings would be limited to deducting the cost of the material from our production prices. Your situation may be different due to the nature of what you work with.

 

[Billct2]

1. Would you prefer to be contacted via email, phone, or face to face? If face to face, is a pop by acceptable or do you want to have a "meeting" scheduled?
For me a brochure would be good, or a cold call for a time to drop off a brochure and sample would probably be OK.
2. If we spoke, what would you be concerned with? What would you ask me?
What are you capabilities, do you understand signs, what kind of files would you accept, how fast will you get jobs done and how much?
3. Pricing is important. To me, custom work requires custom pricing. I just don't think a price sheet works with this kind of work. How would you feel about having to have every job quoted out?
I wouldn't mind getting a quote, as long as it was quick.
4. Most of my experience is dealing with end users, essentially retail work. I send out work to be done by vendors fairly regularly and it works out well for me. I've had mediocre results working for the trade. To be honest, most of the issues were down to pricing (I was "too expensive"). How do you make it work when you outsource this type of work where everyone is happy?
You have to be priced right to make it profitable to use you. Also you have to be committed to the business model, not just using is a way to fill in till you regular work picks up.
5. Deliver/Pickup: What are your expectations?
Either
6. Sheet goods: Do you think it's best for someone like me to provide the material or do you prefer to supply the material? I'm open to both, but I also am well aware there are pros and cons to both.
I would prefer to be able to supply the material or have it drop shipped to your location. A lot of times I can get a job out of cut offs I already have.

 

[rossmosh]

Thanks for the feedback thus far. Some interesting thoughts on everything. In response to a few of the questions/statements:

Kottwitz-Graphics: The goal is to offer an alternative to calling up someone like Harbor, Grimco, or Gemini. There are times when those companies don't fit the bill and there are times when I simply can do the job cheaper and faster. For example, I'm a big advocate of DiBond and PVC and Gemini doesn't really offer either in their catalogs. 1/2" thick exterior PVC letters are a huge savings over acrylic.
1. I don't do what you do. I don't do vinyl, printing, installs, ect. You do what you do. I do what I do.
2. This is mutually beneficial. It's not just about me cutting some letters or a sign blank because that's only 5% of the job. You have to do the design, install, deal with the customer, find the customer, ect ect ect.
3. This isn't a "side project" or a "let me fill the void" type of thought process. This is a you have the customer base, I have these machines, let's make it work for both of us.

fixtureman: I also thought about samples but I'd rather provide samples of what they want/need vs what I think they might want. There are so many materials out there and are CNC friendly, how did you decide to narrow it down?

Fred Weiss: Thank you for your response based on your experience. Do you really think it's best to market myself as someone that provides just a component to the job? I have no problem just cutting out some letters as part of a bigger picture, but some of my favorite vendors to deal with provide me with finished goods. For example, I wish I could sell Gemini plaques all day long. I draw something up, and in 3-4 weeks it arrives and is ready for the customer.

As for pricing, I definitely see your side of things. From the customer's perspective, quickly being able to price out a project is a huge advantage. There are a few reasons I'm scared of a price sheet. Managing inventory is a major concern. Expectations vs reality, and by that I mean I price out for Times Roman and you have some crazy font which is takes twice and long, smaller bits, more passes, ect then my price sheet goes out the window. Personally, I know I get a sour taste when I expect the price to be X and it's Y.

The disputes on pricing has always been a result of the type of work we do, which is primarily smaller jobs. The expectation is small = cheap when in reality, small = detailed more often than not. I 100% agree with you when it comes to justifying pricing. Most of us like to keep things in house as the belief is it saves money, but often it simply isn't the case. Cutting letters with a jig saw simply isn't as efficient as the CNC.

Billct2: That's exactly what I'd like to know. Thanks. Pretty much inline with what I had thought.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred Weiss: Thank you for your response based on your experience. Do you really think it's best to market myself as someone that provides just a component to the job? I have no problem just cutting out some letters as part of a bigger picture, but some of my favorite vendors to deal with provide me with finished goods. For example, I wish I could sell Gemini plaques all day long. I draw something up, and in 3-4 weeks it arrives and is ready for the customer.

Not what I was saying. You can certainly market yourself as both. Study how Gemini does it as well as their competitors and use it as a guideline for setting up your own presentation, prices and terms. When I started supplying other shops, I looked at what Gregory, Inc. was doing along with Graphitek of Vermont to study what needed to be covered. I also timed my equipment and looked at yields to come up with my own prices and variations.

As for pricing, I definitely see your side of things. From the customer's perspective, quickly being able to price out a project is a huge advantage. There are a few reasons I'm scared of a price sheet. Managing inventory is a major concern. Expectations vs reality, and by that I mean I price out for Times Roman and you have some crazy font which is takes twice and long, smaller bits, more passes, ect then my price sheet goes out the window. Personally, I know I get a sour taste when I expect the price to be X and it's Y.

The disputes on pricing has always been a result of the type of work we do, which is primarily smaller jobs. The expectation is small = cheap when in reality, small = detailed more often than not. I 100% agree with you when it comes to justifying pricing. Most of us like to keep things in house as the belief is it saves money, but often it simply isn't the case. Cutting letters with a jig saw simply isn't as efficient as the CNC.

If you look at the way certain other vendors handle this, you'll probably be able to settle into a three tier system such as "Simple", "Normal" and "Complex". You can then look at the variations on this and take the good with the bad in each.

Keep in mind that you do not have to have all the answers to start. If one did, then nothing would ever get done.

 

[Gino]

• Personally, I don't care what method someone uses to contact me, as long as it is professional and to the point. I would prefer a quick discussion of scheduling it to see if I am at all interested, so not to waste your time or mine.
• My concerns would be, what you can do for me and my bottom line. I generally don't ask the questions, this would be your party and it's up to you to keep me interested and happy.
• Nothing today is custom anymore. Not when machines are following a pattern or file. It's time and materials.
• There is no time to have you quote out each and every job. We would need a price schedule and keep it pretty simple, as this stuff is not rocket science, no matter what kinda spin you want to put on it to justify higher prices.
• You win some, you lose some you can't be everything to everybody. Your wholesale customers will be your new end-users, so you must keep them pleasantly happy with a buck in their pocket.
• Deliveries....... pickups...... you're thinking too small. You need shipping capabilities. Most people within 15 miles of you are not gonna trust you.
• As for substrates, I'd say, unless you can go get your needs the same day, you better stock some of everything and rely on volume and fas turnaround..

Most of all, be totally honest with what you can do and provide. Any bullsh!t or tomfoolery and you're written off..... forever. Don't use buzz words or terms which you think are slick. In most cases you'll be contacting people that know as much if not more than you and don't appreciate cheap shots. The people you want to contact will value their time more than anything, so use it wisely.