All this talk all the time about price... price... price.............

[visual800]

I quoted a lexan sign 5x8 1.5 months ago for $650 i would have it done in 1week. Customer said he got a quote for $250 and they would use the same material in there now and just clean it up. That sign has been taken down shortly after and is still not up, lol

I love it! It takes everything not to email this jacka$$ and ask if he wannts me to go ahead and do the sign. That is price difference right there

 

[threeputt]

I think that some shops, not all, have no idea how to run a business endeavor.

Notice I didn't say, they have no idea how to make signs. They can make signs alright, that's not the issue.

It's the ability (or inability) to run a profitable business. And that takes administrative skills. Not all shop owners have those.

Now, I do not have a Masters in Business Administration myself. Not trying to imply that at all. But I do believe if you're going to succeed in this game, you will have to spend some time, maybe considerable time, figuring out exactly how your company is positioned in your market.

That more than likely, will dictate what kinds of projects you take on. For example, we don't make carved signs. (I can do them, made them for years) We don't mess around with complicated displays for museums, theme parks, etc. (I can't do them profitably)

But we do an awful lot of business with the industrial side of things like the paper mills around here. They always need signs and we've gotten very, very good at knowing exactly how to talk "their language", make the signs they need.

No they're not works of art. (although they are laid out well, and perform the task required of them) These are your basic signs that read, "Watch out for forklift traffic when yellow lights are flashing" etc.

Sure we do vehicle wraps. Did 20 of them in 2012. (full wraps) Yes, we letter trucks for mom and pop businesses.

But what we really go after is the guy who's got 20-40 vehicles in his fleet. Or large property owners (like Weyerhaeuser) to need tons of signs.

 

[4R Graphics]

Wow lots of great info.

My 2 cents is there are way to many people out there willing to make a small buck and are just killing the market.

I am a very small company but my prices are pretty close to what most of the bigger shops around are charging why? because if I want to grow and have the overhead they have one day I need to charge for it now. I learned a long time ago you can always lower your prices but when you raise them your repeat customers get upset.

I went to a trade school many many years ago for automotive paint and body work. In the automotive repair world and many other industries as well they have a basic book. This book says that product A takes roughlly X amount of time to repair so that is what they charge for (there shop rate at what ever the book says in man hours) plus parts.
This is why most automotive shops have very similar prices sure they are a little different as there shop rates differ and some get a discount on the parts but its not a drastic difference.

This is what our industry is lacking if we as sign company owners ever want to have a stable industry and be able to all make a profit then we as sign company owners need to get together and make a industry guild or something that dictats basic pricing and times for signs and we need to make it state and or nationally mandatory to be a member of this guild or what not inorder to be in the sign business. You cant just run out tomorrow and become a plumber or an electrican well you can but you cant own a company you have to be a master plumber or master electrician to do that and you will have to be part of the guilds and what not and meet the requirments and this is how those guys have manged to keep there industries from being over run by hacks and keep everyone and company on a somewhat level playing field.

So we need a club/guild and make it mandatory require special state or federal licenses and have a pricing guide that sets the base and then go from there so who wants to try and get that going.

There are a lot of different guilds etc in this industry i think the best thing we could do if we want to be like the plumbers is to get as many of these different guilds or what not together as one thing and get the manufacturers to help and setup federal standards and lobby to have laws passed to keep hacks out and then we may be able to get a basic standard setup for pricing.

Again just my 2 cents.

 

[Sign Up Graphics]

Sign Up Graphics

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Commodities versus selling a service. Design is a service, signs are simply the medium.

Sell the same thing as every shop, and you'll be in the price per sq ft game for ever. Position your shop as a design-centric shop focused on solving business problems, and you can charge what you want, because your deliverable can't be attained elsewhere.

 

[ColoPrinthead]

Working as an estimator these days, I will tell you that my experience in price variations and people wanting something cheaper or mentioning a competitor being cheaper is usually a result of them not providing enough info or noticing the difference in materials listed.

I don't like seeing competitor's estimates and haven't yet, so I'm guessing they either decide on a cheap and inferior product or they choose quality because they value the fact I'm telling them about all of the materials we use and why. As far as I know just because a job I bid doesn't go through doesn't mean it was our price, it could be my potential customer's mark up. The shock first time buyers often get are because they haven't bought my product before and had large dreams unrelated to budgets.

And yes I realize that I am probably legitimately beat on estimates occasionally. Usually when I am told I'm too high on price and someone is cheaper I ask the potential customer if they are sure that both were done to the same specs and offer to look it over; I either don't hear back at all, I am told it was a quote over the phone (really? who wants to leave room for error like that? I guess if its straight done by sq/ft cost it's not so bad) or the order is placed.

In my opinion it really comes down to you (or the person interacting with the potential client) explaining to the customer the process, materials used, and helping them understand and appreciate what it takes to achieve their goal and the benefits of following your recommendations. You have to show value in what you do and produce to make it appreciated.

It would be nice if this process worked as well as it does for production when it comes to design.

 

[OldPaint]

find yourself the customers who want the thing YOU DO, THE WAY THEY WANT IT DONE........and those i have like this .............call me, tell me what they want, i do a layout, email or have them look at it. if the like it, they say WHEN WILL IT BE DONE? and price never is the driving factor. BECAUSE THEY KNOW the work i have done for them has never been less then MY BEST.

 

[rjssigns]

Here is a a page from a report I recently wrote for class take it for what you will.

Pie and Negotiation​

Everything in life is a negotiation. In business it is all about how big a slice of pie you can get. Somebody wins somebody loses. You don’t care about the consequences for the other businesses you are bidding against. This is distributive or zero-sum negotiation. Bigger is always better right? In theory it works, but as more competitors enter a given market the slices become very thin. Business owners are looking for the next deal and my competitors are doing whatever it takes to get their "big" slice however small it may be. While reading an article the point was driven home and made me take a look at what I've been doing. It touched briefly on a Honda philosophy regarding market share: "We enlarge the pie and no longer fight over individual slices". Although I cannot attribute the origin to Honda it is salient nonetheless. Honda's approach is to create a market. This becomes a value added proposition or integrative approach. Without focusing on technical jargon I have been engaged in this practice for many years. I'm continually researching the best materials, equipment, and practices while collaborating with clients in an effort to increase value. To this end we are adding new equipment allowing us to enlarge the "pie".

 

[Gino]

All great input.

This has really become a nice 'Round Table' discussion and hope more members will chime in.

So far, there are great answers coming from every direction. Two or three of these posts have hit on what I was originally talking about.

I wasn't really searching a method to attract bigger or better paying customers, but why is there this need to seek out the cheapest way to make a simple sign, such as a 2' x 3' 2-sided aluminum sign ?? For those who are above this level, just try to play along. We can take this whole thing to the next level later, but if we confront this on-going problem step-by-step, we might actually help everyone.

Of course design, better materials and overhead will have a huge part in this, but why is it.... so many people can't get the gist of basic sign making ??
As mentioned... so many other industries/trades already do this.... and for some reason, sign people don't think it's needed. Also, we don't [anyway I don't] want to go back to the days of unions to control this kind of stuff. I believe this ties in with whomever said about so many don't know how to run a business. Therefore, regardless of what type of business they were in..... they'd probably run it into the ground.

Having a commodity vs. a custom product ?? Not hardly. Turning out 1,000's upon 1,000's of trucks or cars a year...... so what.... if you have a market, they'll be buying no matter what you're selling. We're selling a useful, profitable and valued product, just like a car or a roll of vinyl. Labeling things to fit your needs doesn't change the fact. That would be like saying screen printing 1,000's of political signs or real estate signs is not a money maker cause they do so many of the same thing. Nope, that doesn't cut it.

So, on this last day of the week, let's see if we can rattle our brains a little more............. ​