Am I experiencing outgassing?

[gabagoo]

I do the graphics for a taxi company that runs wheelchair vehicles. part of the graphics is a yellow and black checkerboard that runs down each side about 4" wide. When I started doing these I would print the checkerboard on white 2ml 3m wrap material and use the 2 ml lam. I just could not get a deep enough yellow so I decided to print just black on 3M 2ml primrose yellow. I print each stripe about 50" and then put them together down the sides of the vehicle. I use soap and water as I have to match up the pattern. I have done probably about 20 vehicles this way over the last 3 months and it works fine.
They always seem to be a rush and I usually pre print the stripes so I have a set for the last minute requests.

Today I had none and completely out of yellow, so I picked up some at noon and by about 1 pm had a sheet of stripes printed. the truck was coming in at 3:30 so I delayed laminating until 3 and then cut them up.

I had 4 stripes left over from earlier runs and used those first. No problems and then had to use the fresh stripes. They seemed to go down ok and I usually squeegee over them every few minutes as I put each piece down.

After about an hour I was finished applying the lettering and re squeegeed the stripes again and used the heat gun to do the door edges. On the side with the freshly printed stripes I can only describe it as possible outgassing as there were so many large bubbles it looked like I never even squeegeed them. I went over them frantically, but the more I proded and poked, the worse it was getting.

I told the driver of the taxi to try and park it indoors tonight and if the bubbling was still obvious to bring it back either this week or in the spring and I would redo the side.

I guess the stuff does outgas although up until today, I had never seen it happen quite like that.

 

[phototec]

I have been a member on here for almost 7 years and the OUT GASSING debate has been discussed many, many times.


Both 3M and Oracal say in their product speciation's to allow there vinyl materials to properly out gas (dry completely) before lamination. Which makes perfect logic to me and that's what I have always done.


I know there are folks on here who say it is a myth, and they don't worry about letting the material out gas.


Just think a minute about all the posts on here about drops of ink falling on the circuit boards and eating them up, or ink carts that have leaked and the ink has melted the ink cartridges.


You have to let the solvent particles in the ink evaporate (out gas), from the printed vinyl or you WILL have issues like you mentioned.


Although 3M and Oracal say to allow 24 hours for the ink solvents to be completely dissipate from the vinyl, it depends on the ink coverage of the particular job at how long you need to wait. For heavy coverage I believe you should wait over night before lamination.


I have read that for some folks that didn't allow enough time for the solvent to dissipate from the ink, and they laminated right away, the lamination trapped the solvent under the lamination and that causes bubbles and or adhesive failure, the silent attacks the adhesive.


I would rather DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, and wait for the solvent prosperities to leave the vinyl before laminating and not have to redo the job later and loose money.


When the material manufacture says to wait and let the solvent particles that carry the ink completely evaporate the material, I figure they know more than I do about the science.


But for all of you who still believe out gassing is a myth, keep on Truck'en, whatever floats your boat!

 

[James Burke]

The simple fact that ink and media have an odor is proof they outgas.

 

[jfiscus]

Yes, your problem is outgassing. The difference between the two sides shows this easily.
Unless this truck was just painted within the last two weeks then you're gonna have to eat this and reprint.

If this is a customer that you have a good working relationship with try this:
Eat this stripe and reprint it for free, but talk to the boss man over there and set up a deal with him for having some pre-printed stripes in stock.
Explain to him that all prints need to outgas prior to lamination and installation and if he wants emergency installation like this you can set something up like the following:
Charge him for the materials portion of those jobs now (say 1 or 2 trucks), and then charge him for install only on invoices.
When you use those "stocked" materials/pieces, print replacements and send a bill for restocking pre-printed materials.

 

[danno]

I agree with all the above mentioned comments...Good Job everybody.

 

[Techman]

There is not enough liquid in the ink surface to make that much gas. Its all a myth.
The amount of liquid applied is just .01 of a mili liter amounts. Take one drop of of each color ink which is about the amount of ink laid down in a sq ft and spread it with a finger and see how far it goes. You will see just how thin that ink layer is. Those ink jets spray micro amounts of ink. Triple that mount and you still do not have enough liquid creating vapor in the substrate to create bubbles. Especially after it dries even just a few minutes. An hour later there is only about .3% of the remaining liquid is possible. No friggin way no how will it make a large bubble. Tiny little blisters???? Maybe a few. But not like the poster is describing.

There is not enough vapor left wafting around to do that. Period.

Next he mentioned soapy water.. Poke a hole into that blister all the way through both sheets and watch the spew out. That is not outgassing. That is air from the soapy water causing those bubbles.. And that soapy water is likely interfering with the adhesion.

 

[gabagoo]

There is not enough liquid in the ink surface to make that much gas. Its all a myth.
The amount of liquid applied is just .01 of a mili liter amounts. Take one drop of of each color ink which is about the amount of ink laid down in a sq ft and spread it with a finger and see how far it goes. You will see just how thin that ink layer is. Those ink jets spray micro amounts of ink. Triple that mount and you still do not have enough liquid creating vapor in the substrate to create bubbles. Especially after it dries even just a few minutes. An hour later there is only about .3% of the remaining liquid is possible. No friggin way no how will it make a large bubble. Tiny little blisters???? Maybe a few. But not like the poster is describing.

There is not enough vapor left wafting around to do that. Period.

Next he mentioned soapy water.. Poke a hole into that blister all the way through both sheets and watch the spew out. That is not outgassing. That is air from the soapy water causing those bubbles.. And that soapy water is likely interfering with the adhesion.

I have no doubt that the bubbles contain soapy water, but it is the incredible amount of bubbles or blisters that have occurred in the freshly printed stripes as to the ones printed about a week ago have minimal amount of bubbling that is easily squeezed out with a soft squeegee.

Now maybe it is not outgassing, as I have never experienced this with dry application, but possibly the solvent effecting regular 2ml vinyl and possibly the laminate shrinking it due to fast adhesion and use..... in any case I hope the stuff relaxed over the night and dried up...if not replacing is not all that difficult so long as I get the vehicle in before spring hits.

 

[gabagoo]

I should also add that it is a rich black that we print so we are talking about a lot of ink.