Am I paranoid, or is my gut right?

[CES020]

Had a referral for a new company opening a retail store. Had two names for points of contact. I called, talked to the owner (one point of contact) and he said he needed a sign for his storefront and he needed to meet me there that day. This was a Friday. Get there, he's not there, point of contact person "B" is there. They are in a strip mall, opening up a retail store. They point to the channel letters at all the other shops and tell me they want something like that. They ask how long. I said "It'll be about 4 weeks after you sign off on the design". They say "4 WEEKS? WE ARE OPENING ON THURSDAY SO THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE BY WEDNESDAY". So, it's Friday afternoon, 4:00, and you want channel letters done and installed in 3 working days?

I actually laughed out loud. I explained it wasn't going to happen. We can't even get the permit in the 3 days. I tell them that they must have permission from the owner of the actual building before anything can happen and explain you can't just "put up what you want" on someone's building without their written permission, and, as part of the sign permit, it must be approved and signed by the actual owner of the property. They understand completely.

About then, the owner of the new store pulls in and wants to know the deal. I tell him 4 weeks after approval and he tells me no way. Says this is a new business and they have a 1 year lease and they need it now. The first person tells him that he has to have written permission from the owner before we can start. He says he's already talked to the owner and he has permission to do what he wants to do. At that point the bells and whistles and sirens are going off in my head that this guy is a liar.

The first person continues to explain to him that they haven't gotten permission and he insists they have. I ask for their logo. They don't have one. I ask for font ideas? Don't have any. So you don't have any idea on what font or logo you want, it's not designed, and you want a sign completed in 3 days, channel letters, with lighting.

I kindly leave letting them know I'll get back with them on Saturday with more information.

It eats at me Friday night and I can't get it out of my head that this guy is about to try and rip me off. What my gut tells me is that he wants a sign done, he thinks he'll get away with not paying me up front (or paying for part of it), and then when I come to collect, he'll ignore me until after the holiday, at which time I think he'll be gone. So I contact them and tell them it's just no possible way to get the drawings, permits, authorization, and sign done and installed on their time frame and I thank them for the opportunity to quote the job and apologize for not being able to help them.

I drive by there on Thursday and they have a giant banner fixed to the store front. No permit, no nothing.

So my gut is now screaming at me that I was right that this is a temporary operation, designed to take in all the holiday shoppers and be gone.

I hadn't ever thought about people setting up holiday only stores, posing as viable stores and then refusing to pay.Am I making this all up in my head?

Sometimes I think I'm too paranoid, but I wouldn't feel that way if everyone wasn't out to get me :Big Laugh

 

[Jim Doggett]

Good info, CES020. I don't think you're being paranoid at all ... a temp holiday business might be right. Can you check with the owner of the building to see if the 1-year lease is legit? Even still, they might walk on the lease if they're shadey players.

Just a thought

 

[SignManiac]

Whether that's his intention or not, the real problem is the unrealistic time frame and demands. You're gut is probably right about one thing, this guy is a PITA.

I'd say screw him, not worth the aggravation.

 

[Fred Weiss]

First off, maybe you should have suggested a banner as a viable temporary alternative while the channel letters were handled in an appropriate way separately. You could then have measured, quoted and been paid separately for the banner.

Next, get the specs and formalize the agreement to design, fabricate and install the channel letters. Separate contract and deposits.

If you get your ducks in a row and do the paperwork and money collection right, you won't have to worry about gut feelings.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

.

If you get your ducks in a row and do the paperwork and money collection right, you won't have to worry about gut feelings.

agreed....paranoia will destroy ya'...i think your need a little oil on those squeeky wheels spinning out of control in your head...much more important things to worry about..in fact i am more concerned with what color pants i am going to wear today and truth be told...i'm not at all concerned about that.

 

[CES020]

I did tell them about the only way to do anything in that time frame was a banner, but the banner would need to be screwed into the face of the building, as it was all smooth and no place to tie anything off. My head was saying "Yeah, drill 15 holes into the front of this building without the owners permission, and then wait for the lawsuit".

In my head, I stopped trying to help them when I felt like he was outright lying to me.

There is no doubt I could have worked out something for them in that time frame, but my gut was telling me he's a liar (backed by the point I think he was lying to me), and I didn't want to start a relationship with a guy that I thought was outright lying to me.

If someone starts off the customer relationship with you lying, do you still try and get the deal done or do you walk away? I walked away because I thought it was the right decision for us.

 

[Jim Doggett]

"If someone starts off the customer relationship with you lying, do you still try and get the deal done or do you walk away? I walked away because I thought it was the right decision for us."

Yeah; I agree. Maybe there's some blood in that turnip, but it'll be a tough, frustrating and time-consuming way to make a buck. IMO

 

[Fred Weiss]

I did tell them about the only way to do anything in that time frame was a banner, but the banner would need to be screwed into the face of the building, as it was all smooth and no place to tie anything off. My head was saying "Yeah, drill 15 holes into the front of this building without the owners permission, and then wait for the lawsuit".

In my head, I stopped trying to help them when I felt like he was outright lying to me.

There is no doubt I could have worked out something for them in that time frame, but my gut was telling me he's a liar (backed by the point I think he was lying to me), and I didn't want to start a relationship with a guy that I thought was outright lying to me.

If someone starts off the customer relationship with you lying, do you still try and get the deal done or do you walk away? I walked away because I thought it was the right decision for us.

Putting it on that basis you did the right thing.

 

[iSign]

I'm working with a liar right now. You have to think of some peoples lying as being like a limp, or a tick or a stutter... a compulsive liar can't always help themselves, but there are a lot of them, and some have plenty of money... and control freaks are another breed.... often liars too, but PITA customers can be better than nothing, once you know how to play along.

The guy I'm dealing with had me do a bunch of quotes years ago... there were some edge decals in there, for some snipers club from his Marine days... I got the decals but lost the rest of the bid long after he had been talking like it was my job (& probably got some layouts out of me )

Then 2 years ago, I bid two large plex faces for his run down hotel... when I did all my homework, got all my numbers over to him for redoing his sign faces with digital prints, I also got a request for selling the prints wholesale to another competitor.

I wrote the bid to the competitor, but I told him I was bidding the job too. I said I was always pretty high on installs when a long drive was involved (& I was much busier back then) ...so maybe he would still win, but I wanted him to know i already had a bid in too, so he wouldn't think I was going after his clients.

Anyway, I was told I got the job, but then the red flags started & the deposit wasn't moving my direction fast enough, but the pressure to buy materials & move forward for them was full steam ahead. I said 50%, right now, period... & I finally had some loser secretary say something like "We usually don't work that way" ...so I said "you usually won't work with me either" & hung up on her!

Then my competitor orders the decals & I get paid on the easiest (most profitable) part of the job anyway... and I told him my red flag story, but he wasn't worried... well, fast forward 6 months & I found out my competitor had to fight him in court, & still never got paid.

Now the guy needs his sign changed again & he called me. I have 2 bids in, for 2 scenarios, both over $1000, both written as pre-paid in full.. but the best part.. I didn't tell him that I know he's a liar & a cheat... I just treat him like one. I think he's so used to being treated like one, he hardly notices. I got a $250 art fee just do do the quotes, because I said I needed to charge for design time, to help him figure out what he wants (which I always charge for anyway, when people can't spell out their needs enough to get a quote without a lot of work on my end)

In addition to the money I've been paid already, he's had some peon call me doing the same game.. "you got the job... I NEED you to come measure, or come talk, or come see" or whatever crap he was saying after I stopped listening.. I told him I'm doing nothing further, including wasting time on the phone, until I get PAID... then he called back & said he wanted a conference call with his boss (the Marine sniper)... I said "there's NOTHING to talk about until I get paid... I"M BUSY WITH REAL JOBS!" Then I said goodbye & hung up.

Sure, he is a PITA, but he also needs $1000 worth of work & I've collected $250 to play his game for an hour or two... anymore games come down the pike without a deposit, I'll just charge another $250 for my time... I'm sure other competitors on this Island are aware of his reputation, so maybe I'm the closest thing to "willing to work with him"...

...so, I'll be watching out for number one real close on this one... and might even drop a bombshell on him right when he's really ready to pay... because I'll know at that point he has ruled out anyone else bidding this job that he might talk out of a payment... if the chance of finding a sucker runs out & he calls me with his credit card, I might require a cashiers check instead!

If there was ever a high risk for a chargeback, it's this guy... BUT, he also needs a sign...


...so, I'm playing along a little bit, despite the red flags!

 

[GypsyGraphics]

I say trust your gut! I don't think you sound paranoid, you sound like a pretty good judge of character.

I recently pulled out of a job, just as the deposit was about to be sent, after a phone call that threw up a few red flags. It was for multiple website designs and would have been a nice chunk of change. I thought I might be thinking the next day "What the hell did I do" but nope. You gotta be a pretty big jerk for me not to like you... and this guy was a wheeling dealing arrogant dick. Still feeling really good about having cutting that job loose.

 

[Mosh]

That is why I not longer do stuff for other shops in a 200 mile area from me. Cause I do not want to hear some sob story as to why they didn't get paid. BTW, Craig if you are reading this I still have around $200 of bad checkes from you and I know you own Barrett over $8K for a sewer job. Sucks to be such a know-it-all and be in such a poor financial state!

 

[GypsyGraphics]

That is why I not longer do stuff for other shops in a 200 mile area from me. Cause I do not want to hear some sob story as to why they didn't get paid. BTW, Craig if you are reading this I still have around $200 of bad checkes from you and I know you own Barrett over $8K for a sewer job. Sucks to be such a know-it-all and be in such a poor financial state!

Oh Dude.... soooo not cool!!!
I'm gonna sit back and watch the fireworks now.

 

[Mosh]

I can post up public records for his non payment of taxes, but that would not be cool
(they ar public record) He knows who he is and that is all I need say!

If he was on here he would know I was talking about him and would have no defence!!!!!!

 

[weaselboogie]

I've been hosed a couple of times mainly with customers out of the area. Out of that came a policy statement that the customer needs to read and sign covering things like payment schedule.

Last week I get a call from a guy 2 hours away wanting a sign for black friday. I tell him I need 50% down by thurs. Thursday came and went and no check. I'm not concerned; this just tells me that he's not interested in me doing it or the necessity of the time frame. I'm in this mall on Sunday and he finds me freaking out about his storefront letters. I again explain why he needed to get me a deposit so I could ship his letters by a certain date so he could be open by black friday... we've missed that window. Suddenly he has the money and puts down a hefty deposit. In our conversation I explain to him that I won't be shipping the letters until I receive his final check... I make sure to harp on this. ... whats the worst that could happen? Its a christian bookstore!

Tuesday comes and I'm halfway done with the letters... check the mail, no check. I'm done.. I call and leave a message that I didn't get the check ... not shippping the letters... they won't be open on black friday.

I get a call from him and his wife telling me that the sent the check on monday and I should have it. He tells me that he needs the letters very badly and will be driving 2 hours to pick them up. Today I check the mail and the check is here, letters are done and he's 1/2 hour away. On a whim, I just happened to call his bank to see if the check would clear... it won't. When he got here, he had to pay in cash...

I liked the guy from the beginning and I understand the pains and finances of a startup business, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. However, you should have policies like 50% down, remaining when they pick up just for occaisions like the original post. "sorry, that's our policy. I can't deviate from that". Don't make exceptions if they give a good impression. Put a strict policy in place, follow it every time,and you won't have to worry about your gut. If they blow a gasket, you know you made the right choice... they weren't planning on paying you anyway.

 

[Pat Whatley]

I deal with these people every year. They rush to open a store right before Thanksgiving in the best available space they can find, almost always selling something completely random (two this year are "NASCAR" type leather jackets) They open on Black Friday, stay through Christmas, and are usually gone before New Years. They hope that whatever they're selling is a big item for Christmas so they can jump in, make a quick profit, then shut down to avoid the expense of staying open the rest of the year. They are NOTORIOUS for not paying their final bills. If you do lettering work for a company like that without being paid up front they'll do everything they can to put you off for the six weeks from Christmas to New Years...then screw you because they don't need your lettering anymore. They're LEACHES.

Don't sweat dealing with anyone, just remember to cover your ass. Stick to your guns on deposits and payments. They can lie all day long and you don't have to worry about it...just stick with doing things the way you want to do them and don't let the lies change that. It's all a game for them anyway...nobody said you have to play it.

 

[heyskull]

I have a customer that does this all the time (asking for impossible time schedules) he must have asked me at least a dozen times for different jobs.
I now ignore him as nothing ever comes of it.
I had him in my shop last week gave him an absolutely massive price for his job without even having a good look at it.....He won't be back....lol
I worked out that in the years this guy comes in he owes me 2 weeks wages for quoting his jobs.
Also every job i've quoted him I have asked for payment up front.
I just think he's lonely.......

 

[heyskull]

On another note....

Checks (or Checques as they are called in the UK) are old ways of payment.
As of 3 months ago all our payments are by card or cash.
In the UK the economic climate is so bad you trust no one.
I had a local take-away in at the start of this month trying to pay by checque crying in my shop!!!! Told him if his checque was good he could go to the bank and withdraw that amount without getting charged for the checque.
He didn't come back!
I don't know about everyone else but I have found take-aways to be the worst businesses for the bounced checque syndrome. This is strange as running a take-away is all about payment on delivery. You don't get 30 days to pay for your Pizza!!!!

SC

 

[skyhigh]

I've had an occasion or two where I've asked for the entire amount up front, just because I got that "your gonna get f'd" feeling (paranoid as you would call it).

One time I had a hotel owner switch franchises. We changed out the channel letters on the face of the building, installed new faces in his 5x12 cabinet, metal letters behind the service counter, 3 small parking lot signs & a number of other little jobs. When I gave him the quote, I explained that my deposit was 100% down (12k). He told me he had never heard of such a thing, to which I replied... "Then maybe you should go with someone else, because that is OUR policy". He handed me a check for the entire amount.

Fast forward 8 month... One of his other hotels is switching franchises. This time, he is going with a national brand hotel chain that will be making & installing his new signage, with the exception of a 4x8 cabinet for his "in house" restaurant. My bid was $1200 to replace the pan face, which I got $0 down payment (feeling pretty confident of our relationship). Fast forward 10 months, and I am sitting across from him at the magistrate's office, where I did receive a judgement in my favor.

The moral of the story.....always trust your gut feeling. As I later found out, I was just one of many he had screwed. A few months after my trip to the magistrate, I get a call from a national sign manufacturer & installer, asking if I would be willing to testify at their hearing. They were the ones that did the 2nd rebranding, and got stuck for $29k, which was the remaining balance (1/2) of a $58k bill.

 

[Farmboy]

100% From everyone. Always.
Exceptions: State, County and College's. I broke our policy 2 months ago for a good customer. Mistake. We don't do big jobs like many on here. What we do is done and out the door within a few days to a week. If they can't pay right now what makes me think they can pay 2 days from now when it's done.

 

[CES020]

Thanks for all the stories! Pat, thanks for confirming this happens often. Your story is exactly what I felt was going on. Time will tell. We'll see if they still have a store in January.

Good to know I'm not imagining all these things.