Need Help another wanting to start sign business

[pinkiss]

Ok making short story long, i guess Ive currently in contract work which ends in couple months and been like that for past 3 years,retail before that - totally unrelated to printing or design.Thou on the side ive worked almost 20 years with Photoshop but generally more on IT side of things, I soon realized that it isn't hard to transition into adobe illustrator but then again learning new stuff daily and its not quite well laid out as ive expected but power of software is amazing.

That aside thinking of opening my own sign business to supplement income, i have good idea who my target market might be, since where i live theres at least few new businesses tradesmen mostly that start on daily basis and need signage and my goal is to try to get living out of it eventually, have premises that will be converted into full workshop, proper mobile number that stands out and website in progress, needless to say im operating almost on my own from doing design to working on the site as well printing and weeding,and still working contact.

Now im not a dreamer and didnt wake up one day saying ill be doing this, but have saved long enough to get equipment, i dont have rent overheads or many expenses to add as well and good savings to expand if need to.

Recently finished business course which was a boot camp style training not specific to any kind business just general cover, but left with few questions how do i find those businesses that need signage before they go to other companies, as there's about 3 major ones in the area where i live 30km radius, but they would basically do it all, and costs are quite high for customers that say would need simple sign logo name/ phone etc.

Thus i can network a good bit, with old friends and contacts- it has worked already a bit, but since i live in Ireland where to say the least weather is 300 days of rain most the year at very best, i dont like idea of going to likes of ebay since its a kill on pricing and costs not to mention sellers protection is almost nill against scammers.
and not really fan of social media likes of facebook.

Ive still dont have proper portfolio to show of and any works done would be way to small to advertise on website, even my own car is crap to put any design as it has 0 style or appearance.

Now since ive been doing this for couple months ive found out that even digital work and printing/weeding application eats up a lot into my time as well, seems as each day goes i find more issues that ill be facing my only safety net is that i can give it a go for almost 2 years committing 90% of time on business and not worrying about cash flow.

But at the moment to say the least im all over the place as working on site myself presents programming and proper development issues that i need to research, doing designs is nice but its general practice transitioning from Photoshop to AI,and still have to be committed to work for next couple months on top.

I have family to help out a bit when it comes to finishing final touches on project, but whole side of online and marketing/ design rests on me.

I know im not saying anything new here in fact probably most will laugh and tell me to pack up.But id imagine many if not all here seniors faced this at one point when they started, any tips where should i focus my attention,steps to take to have a shot at it,since what ive invested will hold value and even for me on personal basis is good to have,but dont have clear approach how i will break out into customer market.

As said long story just to give good background for people reading this and any advise is welcomed, as you can tell by now no tinted rose glasses on my part.

 

[Gino]

It sounds as if you are a dabbler. You have no real committement, other than...... you wanna do it. Nothing wrong with that, but there's no real incentive, other than....... you wanna do it. That could be dangerous, as you probably won't make any real decisions as you have a good safety net. The actual drive of needing to succeed is not there, other than... you wanna do it.

Good luck and just stay focused.

 

[pinkiss]

I have to sort of agree about commitment, and safety net, does put that oh well ive got time on me. i dabbled a lot in 3d design back in like 2005 reaching point where id develop graphics that was hard to tell between being real thing once finished rendering.Then few years later took brake from it and technology just exploded with possibilities and difficulty level. Photoshop has been my main tool for a lot of work- posters documents, digital painting and still is to this day - but to be fair when it comes to vectors im still green on doing my own designs, i can pull it off but besides me it wont make someone say wow really as painting is tad different to vector and working with few layers and accounting to colors.

Thou i have a good drive when presented with difficulties or troubles- simple example spent 3 straight days figuring why my printer wont connect to wifi, and many more harder examples where id sit 10h straight figuring why and how to create vm servers out of old pc's, but again once done im done on project.

guess my main knockdown is that ive started early in job doing same for almost 10 years every day,and creative side or passion just got turned off .

 

[mark galoob]

We should always be churning ideas to make our lives more productive...make a better living etc...you should write a detailed business plan and do some serious research and legwork because a starting and running a successful business is like taking your money to Vegas. The more planning and work you do the better your odds for making it work get. And even then you will need a fair bit of lick to make it..

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Well, you can't write and you can't spell, so I'd stay away from the sign business.

Sorry to be blunt, but you asked for "no tinted rose glasses".

 

[pinkiss]

see your a new member here maybe you been in business long but, god your a sour Dough, every comment out of 11 you made seems like you have issues in life, last reply here was June you must be really sad sob to dig out my thread.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I'm just recuperating from a knee operation. Started looking around on this site and thought I would share some stuff I have learned over the years. Sorry to be a "Sour Dough".

I think I was a "New" member 10 years ago. I don't normally have time for this, but I have appreciated advice I have gotten in the past so I thought I might "pay it forward."

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I apologize for being rude. I thought I was being funny, but when I re-read my comment I realized how mean-spirited it was. Good luck with your business venture!

 

[pinkiss]

none taken think there's at least dozen people like me coming and going each day, ill admit i vent into this without thinking or doing proper research i like to work,but suck at communication side as took up to do everything myself and its easy to spit few simple prints and do small jobs, but seeing how saturated market is in general big shop, medium sized ones, different equipment specialties thought me that i simply should of started with small desk cutter and just went from there.

 

[HulkSmash]

run, far. far away. This industry sucks.

 

[James Burke]

run, far. far away. This industry sucks.

That can be said for a lot of industries. Google the term "disruptive innovation" and you'll find that many established industries are being turned on their ear due to fresh blood and new ideas, fueled by un-hindered enthusiasm.

With that said, these people understand that it's not all Pollyanna and candy canes. Yet they still continue to survive...and often thrive against odds that would make veterans get up and walk away from the table.

Sometimes, failures often lead to further innovation.

Over the years, I've come to discover that some people are just hard-wired for such risk and adventure...and amazingly, it's not the money (or lack thereof) that drives them. I stand counted among them.


JB

 

[pinkiss]

well said JB, ive wondered many years trough various jobs - graphics design painting was in me since ive got my first pc when not working im on pc all the time since i was 12 now im over 30 and still love it like the first day, ive mopped the floors from 4am till noon, worked retail 12h shifts 6yrs doing same tasks day in day out, traded stocks ,went into IT got degree in network engineering, worked with 1200 customers as sys admin, did teaching ms365 office for disabled people that never seen or used computer not knowing how to hold mouse etc- training em up to have confidence, many jobs i left or was laid off but its not linear curve, i see some have attitude that you sort of have to be born this guru, yet reality is you learn each day if you have motivation and drive theres no stop.

I see sign business same like two cafes 10 feet apart they both can be good or crap, sometimes you feel like going in most times you make your lunch at home, at the end of the day any job can be cluster headache and same businesses are everywhere competing for few $ to make living signs is the same, id be surprised if anyone in last 5 years who started made any profits in 1-3 years let alone break even, as equipment and costs are dropping this always bring many new people to compete with, guaranteed $ is only if you work for someone else theres no way around it, as someone mentioned you need to hustle be first and innovate, no industry or sector comes in and starts making cash off the bat.

 

[James Burke]

Knowing what I know now, it frightens me diving in 13 years ago with so little knowledge and understanding. So I guess ignorance is also a factor. But somewhere in all that mix, innovation is probably the oxygen that has kept me going. We're literally doing almost four times the volume of work we were capable of since first starting, and all we've done is minor tweaks to some of our original equipment.

Most of the magic has happened because of our procedures and processes.


JB

 

[equippaint]

That can be said for a lot of industries. Google the term "disruptive innovation" and you'll find that many established industries are being turned on their ear due to fresh blood and new ideas, fueled by un-hindered enthusiasm.

With that said, these people understand that it's not all Pollyanna and candy canes. Yet they still continue to survive...and often thrive against odds that would make veterans get up and walk away from the table.

Sometimes, failures often lead to further innovation.

Over the years, I've come to discover that some people are just hard-wired for such risk and adventure...and amazingly, it's not the money (or lack thereof) that drives them. I stand counted among them.


JB

Laziness and complacency leads to innovation. Those that don't do it, sit back, b*tch and blame others for their own demise. You must work just as hard in your business 20 years in as you did the first day you started. Learn something new everyday, its motivating and a stop gap for idiots that want your market share.

 

[TimToad]

see your a new member here maybe you been in business long but, god your a sour Dough, every comment out of 11 you made seems like you have issues in life, last reply here was June you must be really sad sob to dig out my thread.

You came to ask advice and get some encouragement, but end up insulting someone who you know nothing about or how good he or she may be at our craft.

Yes, its a craft. One of the oldest on earth and not to be taken lightly if you are at all serious about practicing it. All any of us have to gauge your seriousness by is your words. You want advice from folks? It'll be easier to come by if you're humble and friendly about asking for it.

 

[HulkSmash]

That can be said for a lot of industries. Google the term "disruptive innovation" and you'll find that many established industries are being turned on their ear due to fresh blood and new ideas, fueled by un-hindered enthusiasm.

With that said, these people understand that it's not all Pollyanna and candy canes. Yet they still continue to survive...and often thrive against odds that would make veterans get up and walk away from the table.

Sometimes, failures often lead to further innovation.

Over the years, I've come to discover that some people are just hard-wired for such risk and adventure...and amazingly, it's not the money (or lack thereof) that drives them. I stand counted among them.


JB

Interesting. I've been in the industry over a decade. It has nothing to do with surviving, and thriving against odds. We're actually killing it, and making great money. The problem is #1 The workforce. #2 The "competition" & #3 The market and consistency in general. I haven't had a vacation since my honeymoon in 2011. Finding people who can fill a leadership role has been our biggest struggle. We have a great core of guys and gals, and anytime we try to add to it, it's a complete and utter nightmare. I work 12-14 hours a day, and now every stereo shop, tint shop, rim shop is offering wraps and graphics. And yes as mentioned above most of these people are idiots trying to get market share, but at the same time most customers just want to pay less, and get the cheapest. So at the end of the day we are affected. We need 10,000 SQFT as we are constantly working on buses and semis, we have huge machines that require a lot of SQFT as well. Rent for a 10,000 SQFT building here is around $11,000 dollars a month. 1 month you can do $200,000 in sales - the next month you can do $30,000. So gauging how many employees you need is nearly impossible. Some people are content with 1-2 employees, in 2000 SQFT. I'm not. I'm always wanting to grow, we're always growing.. but growing this type of business is rough. So it's not always laziness or failures. It's much more deeper and in depth than most think.

 

[James Burke]

Laziness and complacency leads to innovation.

You obviously haven't been in my shop. We literally spend thousands of dollars a year on research and development activities, which leads to innovation...which leads to profitability. Laziness is nowhere in the equation but you're certainly free to believe what you want.

You must work just as hard in your business 20 years in as you did the first day you started. Learn something new everyday, its motivating and a stop gap for idiots that want your market share.

And we certainly do. I said nothing about not working as hard. It's just that we no longer work on the same old issues that were constraining (and draining) profits. Those who do not innovate are the ones who constantly deal with the same old problems with the same old tactics and get the same old results and never question why..

From the sounds of it, I have a sneaky suspicion you're more of an innovator than you let on. You just don't realize it yet.


JB

 

[equippaint]

You obviously haven't been in my shop. We literally spend thousands of dollars a year on research and development activities, which leads to innovation...which leads to profitability. Laziness is nowhere in the equation but you're certainly free to believe what you want.




And we certainly do. I said nothing about not working as hard. It's just that we no longer work on the same old issues that were constraining (and draining) profits. Those who do not innovate are the ones who constantly deal with the same old problems with the same old tactics and get the same old results and never question why..

From the sounds of it, I have a sneaky suspicion you're more of an innovator than you let on. You just don't realize it yet.


JB

You misinterpreted what I was saying. Laziness by one company creates opportunity for another. Amazon vs Walmart is a good example. Walmart could have killed Amazon before they even got going. They already had the infrastructure and warehoused product, it would have simply been a matter of logistics for them to do then, what amazon does now.

 

[BobM]

A lot of the type jobs I did when I started in the sign business are now done by Staples at 1/4 of the price I once got. Stop and look at their operation, pricing and production schedules. Designing and producing truck lettering may help you get started on a part time basis.
Know your expenses and watch your hours. Don't be afraid to charge for your work.
Good luck.

 

[equippaint]

Interesting. I've been in the industry over a decade. It has nothing to do with surviving, and thriving against odds. We're actually killing it, and making great money. The problem is #1 The workforce. #2 The "competition" & #3 The market and consistency in general. I haven't had a vacation since my honeymoon in 2011. Finding people who can fill a leadership role has been our biggest struggle. We have a great core of guys and gals, and anytime we try to add to it, it's a complete and utter nightmare. I work 12-14 hours a day, and now every stereo shop, tint shop, rim shop is offering wraps and graphics. And yes as mentioned above most of these people are idiots trying to get market share, but at the same time most customers just want to pay less, and get the cheapest. So at the end of the day we are affected. We need 10,000 SQFT as we are constantly working on buses and semis, we have huge machines that require a lot of SQFT as well. Rent for a 10,000 SQFT building here is around $11,000 dollars a month. 1 month you can do $200,000 in sales - the next month you can do $30,000. So gauging how many employees you need is nearly impossible. Some people are content with 1-2 employees, in 2000 SQFT. I'm not. I'm always wanting to grow, we're always growing.. but growing this type of business is rough. So it's not always laziness or failures. It's much more deeper and in depth than most think.

This isn't an insult, just something to ponder as I find myself in the same boat. Saying that you can grow exponentially if you only had the proper workforce is echoed by many and is a pretty superficial thought. You've got the production and sales process mastered and its what may separate you from the 1-2 employee shops. The fact that you think you cant find the right people is what separates the 20+ employee shops from you.
I had a customer in the crane business that told me that growth is in steps. I don't remember what he said the breakdown was so take the numbers with a grain of salt. Going from 1-4 employees you gain $$, from 5-10 net profit is stagnant, then there's another jump once you get past 10 and so on and so forth. He said that it is a brutal climb.
I was talking to a friend of mine that I used to work for about the mega millions lotto and said that if I won it, Id buy X company and simply be on the board. He said I was dumb, why would you want the stress? The stress would be different when you delegate tasks down to people making $1m a year vs $12/hr. This is why, I am convinced that you either need to be really big or really small. Everything in between sucks.