Any reports on the new 7_00.11 firmware yet?

[FrankW]

Found too late:

Standard targets ARE NOT needed to measure colors with a Spectro. With the correct software you can measure the values of any color. Try Measure Toll in Profilemaker Pro for one, using Spot Measure you can set one for the reference and the other or next measurement as a sample.

Of course you can measure spot colors without standard targets, with the Barbieri SpectroPad without software too (have a build-in display). But of course I won't measure 48 colours one patch after each other manually, and that 5 times. So I use a standard target to read it in 4 lines. The standard target to read lines with the SpectroPad have a specified size of the patches and lines, and It is just a TIF-File, easy to embed in standard files. For compare values, Barbieri offers a DOC (digital output control) functionality. Even for that you do not need a software for measuring. Have a look on it.

I don't need training how to use a Spectro .

I will not test your sample file. I will only proof with data from the EWS that with my test print light colours doesn't been applied in a considerable amount.

Why?

Why I know that color deviations as I have measured are a typical issue with every generation of latex printers, so with the previous generation too (which have the same amount of nozzles for full and light colors). And I had that deviations too with colours which have no light pendant (for example a special tone of yellow). And I know that the official information of HP which describes the "Long Run Consistency Mode" do not speak about "optimizing the performance of the light head" only.

So changing to CMYK instead of CMYKcm will solve a specific problem you have, but will not be a final solution for ink deviations. A few people (not shure if you alone) tells that to the people, but nobody as far as I remember have ever confirmed your issue.

I will ask at HP for informations about their ink split strategy.

 

[GP_Oz]

I find it interesting what people find out from their HP contacts aroubd the world vs what we hear in AU

Ive spoken with the lab lads here and what I was told about the preheat for long run is that it is more focused on resolving FULL mag and cyan decap/pigment loading at the start of prints edges, boarding white spaces etc.

We have 2 sites that suffer from this the most due to the nature of the job they bought the machines to print so hopefully next week we will have a conclusion to this 7.x.11

Im not a fan of the contone on this unit. I like to know exactly what is going on when profiling.
As nobody will tell us what the splits are .....as a test to see where the splits come in would be to make a file 0-100 with %5 increments to full cyan and mag, and then wipe some OP over the M/Y C/K heads

Ive seen and done so myself in the past run the lights all the way to %100 under the fulls, it helps with inksets that are lacking in punch and can assist in reducing the look of banding in some UV systems

Anyway...its early days and time will tell with this FW

 

[dypinc]

When I see canned profiles from HP that are so poorly done I can only cringe at the thought of those same people "locking in" in their preferred settings like light ink curves on the 300 and 500 series. I suppose we will keep our 260 going and wait for the 600 series

The 300 and 500 are not that bad if you do you own profile creation with a 3-party solution. Sure there are some ink limiting issues (more so with the 300 series) you have to work around and no control over the light ink curves other than printing without the light inks. And also as I am sure you know by now the limitations of HP using only 1 lc/lm print head. To early to tell if the last firmware made any improvements in that area or not. Would I prefer to have control like the 25000 and 260s, hell yes, but now with use of the optimizer I have my doubts we will ever see that as the optimizer is figured into the ink limits. That is something a RIP and you would have to figure for, but I would love to be able try that.

As for canned profiles, if you are running the 300s with 6_02.10 firmware or later, any profiles made before that are junk anyway. But there are many still out there that are able to be downloaded that you would have no way of knowing what firmware was on the printer when those profiles were made.

 

[dypinc]

As nobody will tell us what the splits are .....as a test to see where the splits come in would be to make a file 0-100 with %5 increments to full cyan and mag, and then wipe some OP over the M/Y C/K heads

In printing tests or real jobs it is pretty much impossible to tell just what percentages and where they are in the curves other than they appear to peak around 30%. You can control them a little by how you build you black generation in your profile, but really all you doing is controlling black replacement of Magenta and Cyan or maybe i should say M and C replacement of K as in start K 25% or what ever you choose. The lc and lm inks are set in HPs curve to replace Magenta and Cyan which of course you can't control.

 

[dypinc]

I will not test your sample file. I will only proof with data from the EWS that with my test print light colours doesn't been applied in a considerable amount.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[GP_Oz]

In printing tests or real jobs it is pretty much impossible to tell just what percentages and where they are in the curves other than they appear to peak around 30%. You can control them a little by how you build you black generation in your profile, but really all you doing is controlling black replacement of Magenta and Cyan or maybe i should say M and C replacement of K as in start K 25% or what ever you choose. The lc and lm inks are set in HPs curve to replace Magenta and Cyan which of course you can't control.

hahaha yeah I know, I was just trying to cause trouble with that bit !

 

[303DC]

Are you all done bickering?

So, back to the topic at hand - anyone else running this FW yet? Any issues?

 

[nate]

Are you all done bickering?

So, back to the topic at hand - anyone else running this FW yet? Any issues?

Yep. Nope.

 

[FrankW]

@ dypinc:

Just for your information, I have checked it now: the test print I have printed have used very little light colors. E. g. the Cyan where I have most of the deviation, it makes around 3-4% of the total use of cyan. Should not bring the light head in trouble.

But I have thought over that I will give 4 color printing a try. Should have time next week.

 

[dypinc]

@ dypinc:

Just for your information, I have checked it now: the test print I have printed have used very little light colors. E. g. the Cyan where I have most of the deviation, it makes around 3-4% of the total use of cyan. Should not bring the light head in trouble.

But I have thought over that I will give 4 color printing a try. Should have time next week.

If you can get it through your head that the problem is ink starvation and do you test on real world files/print jobs that would likely use maximum lc or lm over a large area, you then would be able to understand the issues with long run color consistency.

 

[FrankW]

If you can get it through your head that the problem is ink starvation and do you test on real world files/print jobs that would likely use maximum lc or lm over a large area, you then would be able to understand the issues with long run color consistency.

I'm not interested in what you think what's a real world print. I have color variations on full colours too, on samples of customers, for example on prints on vinyls for Bus or train wraps.

The last post was just a proof to you that light colours don't play a big role when printing full colours. Something what is logical, something I have told you, something what you haven't accepted because it don't match your ideas.

I do a representative color comparison, with 48 different color values comparing, and print full colours just for giving the heads a maximum of working load. Check what the DOC-Functionality means with Barbieri color measurement devices, I won't explain that to you. I DO NOT TEST PRINTS, I CHECK COLOR VARIATIONS, AND I NEED A COMPARABLE BASE.

The problem isn't that I don't understand what I do, the problem is that you are very ignorant to all what is outside your point of view. So discussing with you is completely senseless. I will stop that now.

 

[dypinc]

So discussing with you is completely senseless. I will stop that now.

Thank you, I agree. I am looking forward to you not hijacking threads with your irrelevant posts and name calling.

Now back to the question in the OP.

Has anyone that has seen color consistency issue in long runs from ink starvation of the lc/lm printhead seen any improvements with the new 7_00.11 firmware?

 

[FrankW]

I am looking forward to you not hijacking threads with your irrelevant posts and name calling.

The only thing I have mentioned was that color deviation can't be a problem of the light head only, because I had deviation on full colours too. These in relation to the new long run consistency mode. The fight began because of you blaming me because of my idea that full color prints do not use much light ink ... what I have proofed now.

Looking forward to you being more objective and trying to read and understand what people say before doing your prayers about "light ink is everything".

 

[Bly]

I just want to say it's great to have someone with your knowledge of HP latex machines on this forum Frank.

 

[GAC05]

Don't stop,
this is like watching a Russian language film with sub titles in Kanji.
Can't understand most of the back and forth but I am picking up some interesting background info.

I need to build my own profiles soon & every little bit helps.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[dypinc]

Don't stop,
this is like watching a Russian language film with sub titles in Kanji.
Can't understand most of the back and forth but I am picking up some interesting background info.

I need to build my own profiles soon & every little bit helps.

wayne k
guam usa

Quite a lot can be learned form actual users experience, given that we all could be printing on a lot of different media, with a lot different setting and for a lot of different results. Someone who thinks he knows it all because he talks with HP techs but yet can't answer the simplest of questions that most everyday users would know doesn't add much and often adds to more confusion. Example none of us know how HP has set the lc and lm curves so in printing so called solids we have no real idea how much light ink is going down at say 70% to 100%. I can make a guess from the jobs I have run a would say that at 75% it is not 0% and if I was guessing from experience maybe some around 15% to 20%. Way more than I would set if I could control this on the L360 like I did on the previous models. Combine this with only 1 lc/lm printhead and you asking for ink starvation. Others that have posted have also seen this and having changed to CMYK mode instead of CMYKcm mode have seen a big improvement in color consistency over long runs of heavier ink letdown. So if your going to do long run color consistency tests one needs use both color modes for comparison.

So keep checking in, you can learn a lot, I know I have over the years hears what other users are doing. As you test use other users experience and see what works for you or doesn't. Who knows you might find something that non of us have thought of before and contribute to the expanding knowledge. One example I tested because I could never get a answer what if any was the difference in the 6 different media settings baseline ink density, and the answer was none. In other words at 8 pass 100% ink density they all print the same with the same advanced settings. Something I still want to test is different black generation setting in profiles to see what affect I can have over the use of the light inks given that they seem to be the biggest factor in long run color consistency.

 

[Bly]

Don't stop,
this is like watching a Russian language film with sub titles in Kanji.
Can't understand most of the back and forth but I am picking up some interesting background info.

I need to build my own profiles soon & every little bit helps.

wayne k
guam usa

I think the point of the HP latex printers is the average operator in a sign shop can get consistently acceptable colour without having to know too much about colour management.

 

[FrankW]

Someone who thinks he knows it all because he talks with HP techs but yet can't answer the simplest of questions ...

Never met such an ignorant person before. Never said that.

I answer a lot of questions in this forum, even about hard- and software, and most of the people apprechiate my help. Your permanent and annoying prayers about "the single light head is the cause of all evil with the Latex" don't solve ANY problem. Most of the problems are more differentiated than you can imagine ... I don't say that to you as someone who talks to HP, I say that to you as an experienced long-time Supporter of Large Format Printers.

I don't want to continue discussing ink split levels with you. I have proofed to you that with my test print light inks don't play any role, something you have denied all the time. What is your suggestion as a conceited experienced user if someone have ink deviation on full colours, with very less light ink consumption? I'm shure you don't have any, because your only answer to Latex 300-questions is "light ink is the problem".

Thanks Bly .

 

[FrankW]

A final conclusion for that:

I have done tests with the new firmware, with 4c, 6c and 6c with that new long run consistency mode.

In the maximum, 4c and 6c do not have a big difference (could be because of some environment issues too), both above DeltaE (2000) = 2. On the last swatch, 4c was a little bit lower than 6c, but on the one before it was the other way round (measuring tolerances, environment issues during printing, who knows).

Could be that ink starvation is a problem with a high usage of light ink, but it is not the only reason for color deviation (as expected).

With the long consistency mode, the maximum of all colours are permanently below Delta E (2000) = 2 . and it is much more constant. For example, during measuring the sample swatches, the 6c varies between 1.68 and 2.58 (0.9) ... with the LRCM ist varies between 1.64 und 1.71 (0.07). It have a higher deviation from the first to the second swatch, but than remain constant.

So it looks like that this new functionality works.

 

[Morkel]

I'm not taking any sides here, but I do have a question...

@FrankW, when you do these tests, are they large areas of a single colour (eg, full media width, a couple of metres long), or are they small swatches of all of the colours that get repeated? In real-world jobs, if a colour is only used intermittently, then a small colour shift will be barely perceptible. However, a large background colour that is repeated over multiple tiles definitely needs to be consistent over time. And it is these sorts of colours, running continuously, which are going to cause ink starvation, as the heads will be constantly firing and potentially hitting their limits, as opposed to sporadically dropping ink and then having a breather before dropping it again.