Any use of "strokes" or outlines should be for print only.

[myront]

I received an eps logo today via email. Turned out to be a raster logo! Okay, so I reply to the client as if they weren't familiar with graphic design terms and explained that a vector file is what their designer should have given them. His reply? Oh, I didn't think you guys could use the ai file. Okay now that we got that straightened out, the ai file should have been perfect, right? Not so, why? Because they used strokes or outlines (my prefered term). I just spent 20 minutes cleaning up the file.
The point I'd like to make is that one should not use strokes or outlines when designing logos. Too many things can and will go wrong.

• Scale with object
• Corner miter
• nodes not connected properly

Once you nail down the design you must convert the outlines to curves. And we all know you can zoom in really really close to see any flaws/defects. So why doesn't anybody do it?

Rant over.

 

[Tim Aucoin]

I have to agree with you... it's unbelievable how many times we receive files that should be simple vector files, but some "designer" has way overcomplicated the file by adding unnecessary outlines and strokes to objects AND text. I now charge big time to fix crap like that.

 

[sinetist]

I think most designers mainly produce work for print not realizing how many sign people do things a bit differently. I hate it when I get something that needs a bit of altering only to find things buried in countless mask layers.

 

[lgroth]

I've encountered another one I don't understand... Or like. We get artwork from a "design firm" to print occasionally, and it seems like every element of their vector files are created using clipping masks. Can't even edit a typo if we catch one, because most of the text is done via clipping masks with no possible logic behind it. File sizes are huge, ripping takes forever... Don't get why people go through so much work that's not necessary.

 

[T_K]

I think most designers mainly produce work for print

Even with print jobs, this is a bad call. If I have to go in and edit anything on a brochure, for instance, sloppy design work will make it difficult/impossible for me to make those quick fixes.

I don't mind shoving work back to the designer, but often times they're slow to make changes, especially on something small like a typo. And my customers don't want to wait on them. If I can take 2 minutes to make the change, great! But the designers have to set up the file for that.

As far as using strokes, anything on a logo should *ALWAYS* be expanded. Fonts in a logo should *ALWAYS* be converted to vector. There shouldn't be any way that passing along the file would change the logo, unless the changes are deliberate (e.g. color change down the line).

I know I've made some of those mistakes in the past, but I keep adding to the list of what to do and not to do so I'm not consistently making those same mistakes. I'd rather make new ones.

 

[Baz]

Designers don't design with final output in mind.
They design art and it's up to the sign person or whatever reproduction method is used that have to convert the files according to the output machine.
It can be annoying but it's part of your job and not the designer.

Opening files in different computers and software versions will create allot of those "unnecessary" masks. That can be pretty time consuming to clean up and
on many occasions i found simply opening the file in Photoshop thus rasterizing it , makes the process go pretty fast. (except you can't edit the file after).

 

[peavey123]

Designers don't design with final output in mind.
They design art and it's up to the sign person or whatever reproduction method is used that have to convert the files according to the output machine.
It can be annoying but it's part of your job and not the designer.

Opening files in different computers and software versions will create allot of those "unnecessary" masks. That can be pretty time consuming to clean up and
on many occasions i found simply opening the file in Photoshop thus rasterizing it , makes the process go pretty fast. (except you can't edit the file after).

I disagree, I'm a designer and I design with final output in mind. If I am designing something that is not being printed at my shop I will call up the company I'm outsourcing too to find out exactly what they require in the output file and I set up a final version to their specs. I was taught to do this in school, so to say designers don't do that is just a generalization. They should, it's their job. Not the sign guy. If we're receiving artwork from a designer that's for say a cut vinyl job and it's all strokes, I fix it and they get charged for my time or they can fix it themselves. It is my job, but it's not being done for free that's forsure.

 

[signguy 55]

You want to blow a designer's mind that only uses illustrator?

Have them click on the Preview button, (makes it wireframe) I have had a few designers that didn't even know what the button is for. Once they see the garbage that looks great when in full color for print but impossible to cut in vinyl they can understand your feelings a little bit more.

The next step is to get them to convert text to outlines, but you don't them to blow a gasket by showing them too much at one time.

(Not that they'll change their design tricks but still.............)

 

[GAC05]

You want to blow a designer's mind that only uses illustrator?

Have them click on the Preview button, (makes it wireframe) I have had a few designers that didn't even know what the button is for. Once they see the garbage that looks great when in full color for print but impossible to cut in vinyl they can understand your feelings a little bit more.

The next step is to get them to convert text to outlines, but you don't them to blow a gasket by showing them too much at one time.

(Not that they'll change their design tricks but still.............)

You mean like this?


A simple 5x6 show card. That Tokyo Subway line drawing looking stuff on the bottom is a masked wood texture (vector) that only displays as a 1/4"strip on the bottom.
Gang up about 20 of these and the RIP starts crying as it tries to load them in.

 

[Baz]

I disagree, I'm a designer and I design with final output in mind. If I am designing something that is not being printed at my shop I will call up the company I'm outsourcing too to find out exactly what they require in the output file and I set up a final version to their specs. I was taught to do this in school, so to say designers don't do that is just a generalization. They should, it's their job. Not the sign guy. If we're receiving artwork from a designer that's for say a cut vinyl job and it's all strokes, I fix it and they get charged for my time or they can fix it themselves. It is my job, but it's not being done for free that's forsure.

If that's what you expect from designers then you must be disappointed very often.

Clients order designs from a designer and then send the artwork to multiple production houses whether it be magazines, sign shops, web content, tv and so on.

To think that a designer will design with output in mind is being to optimistic IMO.

 

[signguy 55]

You mean like this?

A simple 5x6 show card. That Tokyo Subway line drawing looking stuff on the bottom is a masked wood texture (vector) that only displays as a 1/4"strip on the bottom.
Gang up about 20 of these and the RIP starts crying as it tries to load them in.

Yup, that's an extreme example. But exactly what I was talking about.

Liked the part where the RIP starts crying, that was great!

 

[peavey123]

If that's what you expect from designers then you must be disappointed very often.

Clients order designs from a designer and then send the artwork to multiple production houses whether it be magazines, sign shops, web content, tv and so on.

To think that a designer will design with output in mind is being to optimistic IMO.

Nope, not disappointed very often at all. Just lucky maybe? or deal with better designers?...not sure..

 

[Andy D]

If that's what you expect from designers then you must be disappointed very often.

Clients order designs from a designer and then send the artwork to multiple production houses whether it be magazines, sign shops, web content, tv and so on.

To think that a designer will design with output in mind is being to optimistic IMO.

I understand the rant, but I have to agree with Baz, with the exception of designers I work with all the time, they don't have a clue
of the the huge difference in processes between printing a brochure and making signage, that requires several different mediums that all have to come
together... It really is part of the job, at least it always has been for me.

 

[myront]

I, myself, refer to my career as "graphic designer" not "sign designer" though that is the name of the place I work. A good graphic designer has to consider the end product in all facets. You are wrong if you think you can rasterize a file and "hide" any imperfections. Below is snipit of the ai file as given. What you see is only a small portion of the problems. Luckily all I needed for this sign was a rectangular decal applied to 10mm pvc. None of the outlines were converted nor were they set to scale with object. When I did set the outline to scale the corners were not set correctly (see other snipit). All of these flaws were somewhat easy to fix in corel but still time consuming just the same. btw I hate ai with a passion but it's a necessary evil in this industry.

If designs were done correctly from the get go we would all be in a better place!

 

[Andy D]

Your screen capture show's flaws in the design that would show up regardless of
the end product, that's different than it not being plotter & router ready, or giving you issues
when you bring it up to 1:1 scale. I don't know about other programs, but converting strokes to outlines
is pretty easy in Coreldraw.

Like I said, I understand your rant, welding a shat ton of wire outlines together to make it plottable sucks,
but it has always been much easier for me to make the changes than to try and explain it to a designer,
who has no idea of how to make their "pretty" design less of a pain in the @ss for me.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I disagree, I'm a designer and I design with final output in mind. If I am designing something that is not being printed at my shop I will call up the company I'm outsourcing too to find out exactly what they require in the output file and I set up a final version to their specs. I was taught to do this in school, so to say designers don't do that is just a generalization. They should, it's their job. Not the sign guy. If we're receiving artwork from a designer that's for say a cut vinyl job and it's all strokes, I fix it and they get charged for my time or they can fix it themselves. It is my job, but it's not being done for free that's forsure.

I would have to agree with this here.

When I get a designer that doesn't design for final output, more then likely not familiar with final output as it would specifically apply to me, then in order for me to put out a quality product, I may have to make changes. Changes that alter the overall logo, because they thought a certain type works well at this size, but is no bueno for embroidery.

Now, I have the issue that most of my designs end up with embroidery always being on the forefront. Which has it's pros and cons, so there is a fine line.

The kicker is, these same firms say that there is no need for the person doing production to change anything or that they shouldn't change anything. When I design firm makes a statement along those lines, they better well have a design that fits physical production methods. Otherwise, they are in no position to logically make that claim.

Doesn't matter rather I get vector or high res raster files, my method of conversion is the same, so that isn't much of an issue. But if "your" job is to design a brand that is supposed to be consistent across a multitude of media, either need to be more familiar with the popular output forms, have a basic version that still fits the feel of the brand and/or make the comment to their customers that changes may or may not need to be done to insure quality output.

I can digitize "as is", but if there are problem areas that I make them aware, I can't promise quality as that is a physical production concern and not a conversion concern.

 

[klmiller611]

I, myself, refer to my career as "graphic designer" not "sign designer" though that is the name of the place I work. A good graphic designer has to consider the end product in all facets. You are wrong if you think you can rasterize a file and "hide" any imperfections. Below is snipit of the ai file as given. What you see is only a small portion of the problems. Luckily all I needed for this sign was a rectangular decal applied to 10mm pvc. None of the outlines were converted nor were they set to scale with object. When I did set the outline to scale the corners were not set correctly (see other snipit). All of these flaws were somewhat easy to fix in corel but still time consuming just the same. btw I hate ai with a passion but it's a necessary evil in this industry.

If designs were done correctly from the get go we would all be in a better place!/QUOTE]

Well, this goes to one of my favorite rants, why any of us don't get art that is done correctly. It is not taught correctly, either the instructors don't know, or the line is "oh, just fix that in post production" I was not taught any of this stuff, I had to learn it myself.

The biggest problem with so many people, is the mindset "well, I've got the computer, I've got the software, I've got lots of fonts, so therefore, I must be a designer" That is why I get files that come in publisher and so many other programs that cannot produce professional output. Even with a professional designer, which I am one, many times you get a logo file done in Illustrator with a stroke on the logo, the logo is drawn to about a 10 inches square, let's say, but they use a 1 point stroke, now reduce that down to a 1 inch logo, that .1 point stroke is gone.

I've done stupid things, sure, we all have, but a lot of this is the fault of the system. Young kids are learning how to use Illustrator, with no training or understanding of how to make it work in the real world, and their instructors, when they get to college, may only have a slightly better clue.

Many years ago, I worked at a local place. They called me in on a day of vacation to tell me my job was eliminated after 11 years. While it was partially because I was decently paid, it was also political. I kept up with my friends there, and when they hired a new person, the company always posted a note about the new hire. The person who ultimately came into that position a few years later came with so much praise of their computer and print skills, so I was told.

His abilities apparently were not anywhere near professional level, the stuff he sent to a local printer, who knew me, said so much of it was wrong, it was not even funny.

No matter how professional they supposedly are, it depends on who fixes their mistakes, and if they actually learn from it, or not.

Ken

 

[T_K]

I disagree, I'm a designer and I design with final output in mind. If I am designing something that is not being printed at my shop I will call up the company I'm outsourcing too to find out exactly what they require in the output file and I set up a final version to their specs. I was taught to do this in school, so to say designers don't do that is just a generalization. They should, it's their job. Not the sign guy. If we're receiving artwork from a designer that's for say a cut vinyl job and it's all strokes, I fix it and they get charged for my time or they can fix it themselves. It is my job, but it's not being done for free that's forsure.

Good for you. That's a great practice. And you should be compensated for your work. If the customer did not have signage as part of the scope of your work, that would be extra work and extra cost.

But if the customer paid you for "print ready" artwork for a specific project - like a banner for example - if you create a Facebook-only resolution jpeg for them, then you didn't do the job, and they shouldn't pay anything extra for you to fix it.

My experience working in the sign/print industry with primarily small business owners is that there are a ton of fly-by-night "graphic designers" out there, and my customers don't know how to find the good ones. They judge the design work by price, not by the designer's ability or comprehension of the business needs. So, they pay for what they get. The original hack of a designer can't be bothered anymore (or mysteriously disappeared), leaving the customer with a crappy low-res logo as the only copy. So then we have to recreate the art (which we don't expect to do for free either) in order to complete the job.

There are good designers out there who do amazing jobs. I've seen enough examples here on the forums. But my work experience has not included many of them.

 

[Andy D]

Pure coincidence, I just got done printing a perfect exsample,
the picture is of a backlit, channel letter, pill sign, I was printing today.
If I had to do this signage with plot vinyl, it would have been a nightmare
to make the vector right, but I'm printing it, so it was perfect as is...
except for the spots in the close ups, that's 100% their fault.

 

[BmgFleetGraphics]

I, myself, refer to my career as "graphic designer" not "sign designer" though that is the name of the place I work. A good graphic designer has to consider the end product in all facets. You are wrong if you think you can rasterize a file and "hide" any imperfections. Below is snipit of the ai file as given. What you see is only a small portion of the problems. Luckily all I needed for this sign was a rectangular decal applied to 10mm pvc. None of the outlines were converted nor were they set to scale with object. When I did set the outline to scale the corners were not set correctly (see other snipit). All of these flaws were somewhat easy to fix in corel but still time consuming just the same. btw I hate ai with a passion but it's a necessary evil in this industry.

If designs were done correctly from the get go we would all be in a better place!/QUOTE]

Well, this goes to one of my favorite rants, why any of us don't get art that is done correctly. It is not taught correctly, either the instructors don't know, or the line is "oh, just fix that in post production" I was not taught any of this stuff, I had to learn it myself.

The biggest problem with so many people, is the mindset "well, I've got the computer, I've got the software, I've got lots of fonts, so therefore, I must be a designer" That is why I get files that come in publisher and so many other programs that cannot produce professional output. Even with a professional designer, which I am one, many times you get a logo file done in Illustrator with a stroke on the logo, the logo is drawn to about a 10 inches square, let's say, but they use a 1 point stroke, now reduce that down to a 1 inch logo, that .1 point stroke is gone.

I've done stupid things, sure, we all have, but a lot of this is the fault of the system. Young kids are learning how to use Illustrator, with no training or understanding of how to make it work in the real world, and their instructors, when they get to college, may only have a slightly better clue.

Many years ago, I worked at a local place. They called me in on a day of vacation to tell me my job was eliminated after 11 years. While it was partially because I was decently paid, it was also political. I kept up with my friends there, and when they hired a new person, the company always posted a note about the new hire. The person who ultimately came into that position a few years later came with so much praise of their computer and print skills, so I was told.

His abilities apparently were not anywhere near professional level, the stuff he sent to a local printer, who knew me, said so much of it was wrong, it was not even funny.

No matter how professional they supposedly are, it depends on who fixes their mistakes, and if they actually learn from it, or not.

Ken

I find this thread very interesting. Ken, I agree that there is a disconnection between what we are taught in school and how to apply it to the real world. (Well I guess it depends on where you study) I graduated back in 2009 with a BFA in graphic design from a small liberal arts school (Before they were teaching graphic arts in high school). I found myself teaching my professors about new things at one point. I self taught myself a lot. We had a lot of print assignments that were based around how to use the programs, but that doesn't necessarily make a good designer... I have worked as Art Director for a marketing company and currently I solely run the design and production at a small vehicle wrap company. I also do a lot of freelance on the side (web, branding, etc) It was a big learning curve coming into a "sign shop" but I consider myself to be a much better "pre-presser" now

Finally, I think it all depends on your experience and where you started... I personally love AI, but I understand how to use it very well. And if something isn't right, I guess I'm the one who has to deal with it!