Anyone have a cheat sheet for Mutoh printers?

[imagep]

Like what settings to use for which materials? I saw someone post that they always use the Oracal 3651 setting, and we have tried that, works good in most situations, but we were just experimenting with some window cling material and have to try three or four different settings to get acceptable results (like setting the machine to print twice and using the Avery MPI 2150 profile - although that was not the material we were printing on).

Anyone willing to share tips on different media and settings? Seems like there could almost be a book written on all the different setting combinations.

 

[P Wagner]

Large-format inkjet printing is all about controlling a host of variables. These include (but are not limited to) the model of printer that you use, the inkset used, the media used, the RIP used, the print resolution (dpi) chosen, heater settings, environmental variables (temp and humidity), color spaces, embedded profiles, rendering intents, file types, and so on.

While people often try to ‘standardize’ their settings to one media type, this will never yield optimal results. It may result in sellable output, if you are fortunate, and your media does not change over time

Bob

 

[Steve C.]

Try checking the Mutoh web site for profiles of the material you are printing.
Or check with the Supplier. Or just google it.

 

[imagep]

OK, so I googled for "Mutoh Flexipro Presets" and I did find a couple. One of my issues is that the names of a lot of the profiles and presets are just basically garbledy gook to me, as I am pretty new to wide format.

So, I created a new preset for the window cling (naming it "window cling"), and renamed the preset that Sign Warehouse had on their website to a name that I can remember.

Anyone have any Flexipro 8.5 presets that they like to use for specific items, or a link to any? I found lots and lots of material profiles, but only two Flexi presets. Maybe I should have made this a Flexi post instead of a Mutoh post.

 

[randya]

You dont say which printer, but SAI was just out here a couple of weeks ago doing profiles for ValueJet 1204-1304-1604-1614 (all the same) for Flexi 8.5, they should be up on their website, or at least shortly.


There are a bunch of 8.1 profiles, but not all will convert properly, so you just have to give them a try.

http://www2.mutoh.com/public/SAI_Profiles/

 

[imagep]

You dont say which printer, but SAI was just out here a couple of weeks ago doing profiles for ValueJet 1204-1304-1604-1614 (all the same) for Flexi 8.5, they should be up on their website, or at least shortly.


There are a bunch of 8.1 profiles, but not all will convert properly, so you just have to give them a try.

http://www2.mutoh.com/public/SAI_Profiles/

Thanks, it is a 1304. I will check out the link!

 

[MacDaddy]

Exactly what media??? I can help...

 

[imagep]

Exactly what media??? I can help...

Aaau, any media! I would think that there would possibly be a dozen or so different types media, and eventually I would expect to print on ALL of them, and from time to time I expect to print several different job types (like photographic, line art, etc) on each media.

But basically:

MacTac car wrap material
Clear Oracal car wrap material
Gloss Coated poster paper
Oracal 3651
Window perf material
Static window cling material
Wall cling material
Ink jet garment transfers (maybe oneday)
and such.

Understand that I am not having a one time problem, I am looking for a perminent solution (chart/table/whatever) so that we select the correct settings everytime for every media.

With our screen printing department we have a chart that shows different print requirements (image type and substrait media) and pairs it with lpi/dpi/screen angle and screen mesh. This way we never have to experiment (waste) with those parameters. They are just automatically right every time (as long as my crew follows the chart).

It blows my mind that Mutoh doesn't offer any more information on the settings.

 

[randya]

It blows my mind that Mutoh doesn't offer any more information on the settings.

A profile, which for the sake of argument here, is a calibration between a particular media and a particular printer in a particular environment.

Not just for color, but for performance as well.

The primary difference between indoor printing and outdoor printing is media and ink sets.

Indoor media typically is coated to control dot gain.
In outdoor media: ink limits, ink restrictions, printer heater temperatures and humidity all must be used and considered to 'profile' the media, as well as variances in the printer itself.
The same for storage and use of the media.
Ideally, media should be stored near the printer and the printer and storage areas would be temperature and humidity controlled.

So if you want to develop a permanant checklist, you will need to control your environment and control the media that you print on.

There are thousands of media, and new ones coming out every day, and for the most part, there are variances in media (yes, even from the same manufacturers on occasion). These variance can affect the ability of the media to accept ink and control dot gain in a controlled fashion.
This does not take into consideration variances in white point which can affect color shift.

Here are some generalized guidelines for general media:
http://www2.mutoh.com/public/DiamondShield/Application Guides/

Ideally, your dealer should be able to help you with media choices and application guidelines. The people who supply your media should know how to get you set up.

And the media suppliers often have application guides, profiles, and information, as do RIP manufacturers.


You might also want to search the Mutoh KnowledgeBase:
http://www.mutoh.com/kb/


It looks like most of your questions are on Oracal media.
Pretty popular.

I generally run the Diamond Shield Mutoh DSUltra Gloss Vinyl VJ G2 v2.ptf, profile on this media with a preheat of 40, platen 42, and dry at 50, but I am running 8.1 Flexi. You might want to try the IJ180 profile at the same temps. Or a similar media profile like 1005EZ.



In general I run 40/42/50 on vinyls, 35/38/50 on banners, 45/45/50 on papers.

 

[bob]

Like what settings to use for which materials? I saw someone post that they always use the Oracal 3651 setting, and we have tried that, works good in most situations, but we were just experimenting with some window cling material and have to try three or four different settings to get acceptable results (like setting the machine to print twice and using the Avery MPI 2150 profile - although that was not the material we were printing on).

Anyone willing to share tips on different media and settings? Seems like there could almost be a book written on all the different setting combinations.

This is not a desktop printer on steroids. If you try to run it by algorithm you're going to be frustrated at best. Running these machines is far more art than science and requires the services of a skilled digital pressman, not reading off a checklist. Knowledge without understanding will get you into trouble. If there was such a thing as a recipe book, it would do you more harm than good.

It takes most mere mortals about a year of burning up ink and media to get to the point where they have sufficient, but still primitive, understanding of what they're doing and which does what to who. In maybe another six months or a year, depending, you should be able to deal with most stuff. It'll still jump up and bite you in the ass from time to tome. Just to let you know just who is in charge.

 

[ProWraps™]

try the arlon profile that comes with 8.5. i have found that it has printed the most vibrant colors on every media we have used with that profile. the best reds and greys. it would seem that the ink limits in the profile are MUCH better than the 3M profiles. give it a try and let me know if it works for you.

 

[imagep]

OK guys, I get the point that it is not as easy as it looks. But nothing is as easy as it looks (when someone with experiance and skills is doing it). But I do think that it is rediculous that we (wide format digital printers) should not have to settle with "about a year of burning up ink and media to get to the point where they have sufficient".

Here is what I don't seem to understand: If I use a particular group of settings on a particular substrait, and it works great, would that same group of settings, on the same substrait and with similar or identical artwork not work next time? And is there a reason why I should not record that particular group of settings so that I can repeat my sucess every time I am printing similar artwork onto the same (or similar) substraight?

Some of yall are making it sound like we should HAVE to struggle with each job, playing around with a bunch of settings and wasting tons of material and ink trying to get that perfect print. All I am looking for is a group of settings (in Flexi I think that is called a "preset") that will work with each substrait - not one setting for everything, but a documented collection of settings, one group of settings for each different substrait. Sure, it may be that occasionally we need to make adjustments to the preset, but at least the preset gives us a starting point. Without a starting point we are simply re-inventing the wheel over and over again.

What are the most profitable businesses in the world? The ones that have developed systems that work and work good and are documented so that they can be repeated over and over and be sucessfull over and over. It blows my mind that very few of us small business owners strive to replicate something that they find sucessfull. Look at McDonalds, Walmart, Oracal, Sears, UPS, or ANY sucessful large business or chain of businesses. They all became sucessfull by figuring out a system that works - and then simply duplicating that system over and over and over and over. Don't tell me that is not possible.

Obviously I am for the most part going to have to do this the hard way - trial and error. But I will continue to record my settings and substraights and develope Flexi presets. Maybe in a few months if someone else seeks such information, I will be able to offer what we have developed.

 

[SignsRus]

If you want to use 'out of the box' profiles on the mutoh. I would recommend the 3m profiles for the valuejet. They seem to work great on just about any material.

I highly recommend getting your machine custom profiled to all your materials, but for now grab the 3m profiles and have a ball.

 

[randya]

I highly recommend getting your machine custom profiled to all your materialsquote]

Sorry, imagep, this should have been the first response, as it is the best.
This will usually cover most minor changes in your printer environment, and some variation in media, but not all.

8.5 and the latest service pack, has only been out a short time, so you are a bit on the leading edge.

Is your dealer not offering you assistance?

 

[imagep]

Is your dealer not offering you assistance?

Well, it was ordered long distance, but so far the dealer has been as good as I would expect and has offered assistance with every piece of equipment.

It's not like it is broke or anything, we have used it quite a bit, and I have had good sucess with several profiles. We are basically printing enough to make the monthly payment EVERY day, 5 days a week. I just want to have great sucess with every project.

Yesterday I spent an hour or two trying to get it to do a good job on window cling. I eventially figured it out and the print looks great. I just don't want to have to spend a few hours figuring out every substrait that we may happen to print in the future.

How do you have it "profiled"? I have checked the colors against one of our pantone books and the colors look about as close as they can get.

I still find it odd that the profile would change noticably. We have offset printing equipment, an imagesetter, high volume color and black and white copiers and printers, and screen printing equipment, they rarely change and we rarely have to make significant adjustments.

 

[ProWraps™]

sorry but i have to disagree. the 3M profiles are the WORST profiles of the lot. they dont even work well on 3M media. try the arlon. as far as struggling, well, i guess if your logic held true, i should be able to just go become an astronaught, a pilot, a doctor, and a police man instantly. the only thing i find odd is that you would invest in this equipment with ZERO knowledge of what it takes to learn about color reproduction, and how the machines work.

 

[imagep]

...as far as struggling, well, i guess if your logic held true, i should be able to just go become an astronaught, a pilot, a doctor, and a police man instantly. the only thing i find odd is that you would invest in this equipment with ZERO knowledge of what it takes to learn about color reproduction, and how the machines work.

We have been in the graphic arts industry for nearly 20 years. We have a staff of 7 people including myself, a 6,250 sf building, and a customer base of around 1,000 customers (of which about 35-40 are core customers who place at least one order a month) We are not absolute newbies to the signage industry as we have been producing cut vinyl signs and screen printed signs for nearly 3 years.

If you will notice, we have been a member of this forum for a couple of years. I only recently started posting, but I read hundreds of posts long before we made this purchase. We did not go into this venture uniformed or illprepaired. After 20 years in the graphic arts industry, I would hope that we had a little more than "ZERO" knowledge about color reproduction. Heck, we do "color reproduction" every day!

To add an inkjet printer to our arsenal of equipment shouldn't be surprising. Everyone was a newbie to wide format printers at some point.

And I am actually quite pleased with our progress with wide format. We had instant customers and were instantly profitable. So far I have found that our sign department is by far more profitable per man/hr than any of our other divisions. We were almost immediately able to hire an additional person due to the additional revenue that wide format has brought us. I suspect that in the past few months we have probably printed more (on our machine) than some of the garage shops on this forum (not knocking garage shops) have done in a year or more.

And once again, we are actually not having any problems with our equipment. I am simply trying to streamline the process and to continue our growth in knowledge - something that I would hope that we are all doing.

I am sure that it takes a lot of training to become an Astronaught or a Doctor, but it is possible to get a pilots license in just a couple of weeks (really is not that difficult), and I once had an employee to apply for a job as a police woman, all she had to do was to pass the test and do a few pushups and situps. She did eventually get to go to a law enforcement training course, but she initially became a police officer with absolutely no training.

Sometimes we all like to think that we are super highly skilled at we we do, but the reality is that many "high skilled jobs" can be taught or learned in just a few days.

Anyhow, if anyone needs a Flexi 8.5 preset for window clings, I am perfectly willing to share - just ask. And maybe someday I will have some more "presets" for other substraits.

 

[randya]

Well, it was ordered long distance, but so far the dealer has been as good as I would expect and has offered assistance with every piece of equipment.

It's not like it is broke or anything, we have used it quite a bit, and I have had good sucess with several profiles. We are basically printing enough to make the monthly payment EVERY day, 5 days a week. I just want to have great sucess with every project.

Yesterday I spent an hour or two trying to get it to do a good job on window cling. I eventially figured it out and the print looks great. I just don't want to have to spend a few hours figuring out every substrait that we may happen to print in the future.

How do you have it "profiled"? I have checked the colors against one of our pantone books and the colors look about as close as they can get.

I still find it odd that the profile would change noticably. We have offset printing equipment, an imagesetter, high volume color and black and white copiers and printers, and screen printing equipment, they rarely change and we rarely have to make significant adjustments.

The "profile" doesnt change noticably. But the media does and so does the environment of your print area.

What you are doing is spraying out thousands of drops some smaller than 4 picoliters at a time, trying to cover fairly inexpensive media fast enough and with enough density to have a bright brilliant image, without having the drops merge into each other in a muddy mess.

Flexi changed the color engine in their RIP, which means that some profiles created in earlier version just dont perform correctly in the new version.
I understand that with the Service pack, some of this has been resolved, but it is doubtful that all the old profiles will work as 'designed'.
So this IS one way in which profiles can appear to change.

Again, a profile is more than just color correction, it is about how much ink the media can properly take and control dot gain under what conditions.
The viscosity of inkjet is very, very low compared to screen inks and you are laying down a very small quantity over a wide variety of surfaces and sometimes materials that are not all that friendly to low viscocity inks.

There is some general information on profiling and color management for inkjet printers here:
http://www.mutoh.com/
And click on the "Resources" menu tab and then the "Color Management"
There are some articles on profiling and links to Tuned Color and Digital Color Concepts who can come to your facility and profile your media on your machine and help you set up checkoff lists.

There are others out there who provide this service, it can be very useful to those such as yourself, who want to minimize the learning curve.

Otherwise, stick with us and we will try to help you best we can.

 

[ProWraps™]

if you have been in the sign/graphic/color industry for over 20 years, and you are posting about profiles... eh... hrrm.. maybe things take a bit longer in your neck of the woods.

 

[imagep]

Otherwise, stick with us and we will try to help you best we can.

Thanks, I just may do that! :U Rock:

We have four different type areas in our building. A large customer service area, a office area (clean and climate controled) a storage area, and a manufacturing area for the big equipment.

Our Mutoh is kept in the relatively clean office area along with both our cutters and our laminator. So my hope is that the enviroment will not change that much. We also make an effort to keep the humidity between 40 and 50 percent in that area because we also tend to store paper in it (and humidity makes a huge difference in offset printing).