If you like high tax rates so much, pay more! It's not against the law.
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Apparently France hates investments and innovation
- Thread starter Move In Media
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If you like high tax rates so much, pay more! It's not against the law.
While I agree that things are different.
There still appears to be no correlation between tax rates and job creation, certainly not in the fashion certain idealogues promote.
The data shows that they take more money out of their companies and out of the US now that the tax rate is LOWER than when it was higher.
So they have already left (at least their money has).
It they want to move to the Cayman's or Switzerland to be with their money, what is the difference?
The REAL question is:
IS the propaganda that reducing taxes at the top end make them job creators, true?
The FACTS say NO.
As I said, I am AGAINST income taxes.
But we are WAY out of balance.
I am for trust busting myself.
Increasing competition and getting Corporations off the public teat and let them compete fairly and evenly in the marketplace.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Even though corporate tax is lower now then it was back then, it's still the highest in the developed world.
That's your reason why it's still left. As far as the companies are concerned.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
You really need a fair comparison to see if that's true or not.
Like I have said numerous times, there are variables that existed then that don't now. Apply the same situation in both and then see if it refutes that thought.
I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, I'm saying that ability to compare to definitively say one way or the other isn't there.
CES020
New Member
I might actually be proud of that comment.
I might not know tax brackets, but I darn sure know if you take money out of my pocket, I have less to give others. Where I come from, that's called common sense. Apparently they don't teach that in some parts of the country.
How taking money that you didn't earn and giving it to someone else is justifiable is beyond me.
It's always okay when it's not you that they are taking from. Neither of the two of you that are taking up for this have answered my question.....
So when you take ALL their money, it keeps the government running for 8 days. Once you've sucked every once of blood from the people that worked their butts off to create a business and grow it, then what? Who's going to pay for the other 358 days of the year? It has to come from somewhere. It's not magic. It has to come from somewhere, and since you took it all from the people that "had", what's the next step?
Like I said, there's not one single successful example of how you tax yourself into prosperity. If it worked, it would make sense to tax EVERYONE more. If taxing people more makes things better, then everyone should be standing in line to pay for taxes because it makes everything all better.
But it doesn't.
You take money from me and my business and it means I'm either going to cut jobs, cut wages, or cut benefits I would offer my employees. Keep taking from me and making it too painful and I'll just shop the place down. Then where are you going to get those taxes from when I'm gone and all my employees are not paying taxes either?
Oh, let's head down the "big companies are evil" route. Go look at what makes up all the retirement funds 90% of all people with retirement plans have. I don't recall seeing "Mom and Pop's Sign Shop" in the list of investments. When big business does well, so do it's investors, which means all the millions and millions of people that have their retirement plans. Tax the crap out of them and they'll find another loophole and the other people that will suffer is the people that own the stocks in their 401K's.
I disagree.
I believe it has left because they have lobbied for tax breaks to move it out of the country.
https://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv4/gr...policy/documents/documents/ecm_pro_067812.pdf
That and Corporatism and its respective LACK of Patriotism.
Exactly, we need a fair comparison.
And no one has yet demonstated that the numbers are not a fair comparison.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213
IS the propaganda that reducing taxes at the top end make them job creators, true?
Numbers show that people avoided the high tax rates by investing more in their own companies.
While now it appears that they take more money out of their companies and send it overseas or hide it in banks.
This seems to make sense to me, and reflect what is going on in America.
If this is NOT true, someone should be able to provide some data.
To me, that is the sole purpose of debate.
ALL Americans that have prosperity have been taxed into it.
Without Constitutional rights, without the Military, the Police, Fire Depts, Education, Power Grid, Streets and Highways, etc there would be no opportunity for anyone to prosper. These are all paid for with tax dollars.
Here is a small example:
". A perfect example, I know someone in Antananarivo Madagascar who's business (exporting minerals) fell apart because the constant storms and the finacially brooke populace where powerless to fix the sad one lane highway from the capital to the port of Tomasina where things could be exported. ... That guy in Madagascar could bust his frickin *** all day and work every minute to build his company but without an infrastructure, provided by the pooled efforts of an affluent and rising populace....its all for naught folks."
Sorry, I have lost the source link for this, but you get the idea.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Yet another difference that makes a comparison between the 50s and now a very hard comparison to make.
Having a higher tax is going to change that. They would still do a C/B analysis to see what is going to net the more profit. Still taking it out of the country can still be a viable alternative depending on the other factors.
This isn't just tax, while tax is a huge part of it. It's only one variable and taking out of context can be very misleading.
Numbers can be good, but numbers without context can mean almost anything.
Instead of increasing taxes, think of other benefits to bring them back. Raising the payment on something isn't going to bring people back. It isn't. It wouldn't me and I know it wouldn't you unless there was something else that they were getting.
Would you willy nilly pay more for something unless it was getting you some other benefit (real or imagined)?
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
If taxes only went to those things that would be one thing. Unfortunately then end up doing some other things that feed a vicious cycle that cause the need for more taxes to be levied.
I have no issue with those things listed being use for my tax dollars (although I do believe some of them are now privatized due to governments not able to handle them), but there is alot of other waste that adds also for the need of higher taxes. Cull the dead weight there as well.
True enough, the real problem is Corruption and the biggest corruptor IMHO is Corporatism
Unfortunately they are being privatized to Corporatism.
What the government used to do at no profit now has to have a profit.
http://www.republicreport.org/2012/how-big-corporations-cash-in-on-food-assistance-programs/
Waste is abundant because of corruption, primarily Corportism. IMO
Isnt this REALLY the source of all our economic problems?
We value 'investment', making money off of money MORE than real work.
More that actually producing something of value rather than money on paper.
Isnt that why some people pay 13% on 'their income' while those who labor pay so much more.
Remember the Great Depression, all that 'wealth' that was really just debt.
Pretty much the same way now.
All very valuable until too many cash in, then the illusion fails.
Remember WHY social security was implimented in the first place?
There is nothing more corrupt than our government........
Yes, there is....
Those Corrupting our government.
I have read our Constitution, it is a GREAT GOVERNMENT.
CES020
New Member
Sorry, wrong answer. A "Corporation" status was put into LAW by the congress. Businesses didn't create the laws, the government did. If you don't like big business and think it's unfair, then don't blame business, blame the people that wrote the laws.
If you don't like the laws, work to have them changed, but don't blame businesses for following the law.
I know a lot of big corporations that give millions and millions and millions of dollars to help people.
I know a lot of government programs that take millions and millions and millions, and help few.
Where's that old story about the government doing a study by putting shrimp on a treadmill?
Yes, I paid taxes to put those roads down. So did big corporations. I've never gotten a job from a road. But I have gotten many jobs from big companies. Roads don't employ people, companies do. Companies exist to build roads. But to have that road built, you have to take money from people to do it. What if I don't want that road? You still take my money.
Shall I really dig up all the bridge to nowhere stories? That's called waste where I'm from. I don't think I could actually call a bridge to nowhere "prosperity" with a straight face.
It IS correct.
I have no problem with Corporations.
I dont blame businesses or even big businesses (unless they are too big to fail and hold government and its citizens HOSTAGE until the RANSOM is paid)
Ok, I do blame those like GE who get tax breaks and welfare and an office in the White House, or Halliburton for having their guy in the White House.
But BUSINESS, i.e. the Free Market it the greatest thing going, if we could just get Free Market, instead of purchased government.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html
On Oct. 22, Weill and John Reed issue a statement congratulating Congress and President Clinton, including 19 administration officials and lawmakers by name. The House and Senate approve a final version of the bill on Nov. 4, and Clinton signs it into law later that month.
Just days after the administration (including the Treasury Department) agrees to support the repeal, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the former co-chairman of a major Wall Street investment bank, Goldman Sachs, raises eyebrows by accepting a top job at Citigroup as Weill's chief lieutenant. The previous year, Weill had called Secretary Rubin to give him advance notice of the upcoming merger announcement. When Weill told Rubin he had some important news, the secretary reportedly quipped, "You're buying the government?"
Corporatism is the merger of Government and Corporate Power.
Just like religion and government dont belong together, neither does business and government.
They are both all corrupting.
http://endoftheamericandream.com/ar...e-our-economy-that-every-american-should-know
CES020
New Member
So exactly who makes the weapons for the military? Who makes the cars and equipment for the police? Who makes the fire trucks? Who builds the schools? Who builds power plants? Who builds equipment to dig the road way and pave it? Who makes the asphalt? Who makes all that stuff?
It would be great to have roads, but if there are no grocery stores, no businesses to work at, what do you need a road for? You have to have a reason to go to work. In this case, people drive on the roads to GO TO WORK, not because it's just a fun thing to do.
Without the private sector, small businesses taking big risks (that's how most all huge companies got that way, by starting small and growing), there would be no roads, no power grids, no fire trucks, no police cars, etc.
I would argue the government it too stupid to enact anything that would hurt the business. Big business hires big, smart people. They figure out loopholes before the ink is dry on the bill. So in fact, most of the laws in that area do nothing. Want to tax me? Okay, hey, let's create some offshoot of something that we can funnel the money through that didn't exist before the law, so it'll be exempt from the law, and then it'll be business as usual.
I used to work with a major company. Global company. They were about 5-8 years ahead of the government on legislation. The government was trying to tax the crap out of them and they had it all figured out. The day the laws went into place, they had already restructured their entire global business to avoid everything in the law.
If you keep writing stupid laws, smart people will keep figuring out a way around it. Flat tax them and the problem is done. No loopholes, no 2000 pages of legislation, just about 3 sentences and it's done.
Who cares?
Without government (and since we moved away from tariffs to fund our government to taxes) you dont have a military, you dont have police, you dont have schools.
So AGAIN, without taxes you CANT prosper in America.
Of course they can AFFORD smart people, who do you think writes these laws?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council
You REALLY need to understand WHY lobbyists have jobs.
TO INFLUENCE and in MANY cases WRITE LAW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying_in_the_United_States
All those 'stupid' laws, loopholes and 2000 pages are bought and paid for to Special Priviledge and Power to those represented by lobbyists.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...-2-billion-tax-cut-mitt-romney_n_1873683.html
Why do you think lobbyists spend so much money?
Dont they expect a profit?
I want no income tax.
I would want to bring back tariffs to protect our own industries and jobs.
At worst case a national sales tax.
And that would be on everything, including 'investments'.
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