As We are Getting Closer to Jan...

[WildWestDesigns]

I thought I would throw this out there for those that may be getting new computers as Win 7 EOL rolls around (although Win 8.1 still has until 2023, just don't know how many are still using that (I actually kinda liked it, but I also didn't miss the start menu either, but I was using it on a tablet (cintiq, which is the only instance of Windows on bare metal that I still have))).

I'm sure everyone could guess in which camp I would be in and would hate to see this choice go away (but I'm not surprised really).

Anyway, I just thought I would throw this on out there for those that may be updating their rigs in the coming months (could still change, but I personally doubt it, but could still change).

 

[OADesign]

(cintiq, which is the only instance of Windows on bare metal that I still have))).
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WildWestDesigns Mind sharing what you are using as alternatives? Mind you, I have not done a ton of my own research as to what is out there beside mac and windows (for a production environment. I'm team windows at the shop and at home). Everything that I use (more or less) live in that ecosystem. How are you escaping the grasp of Micro$oft? Or are you a mac house with windows running in a bunch of VMs?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

WildWestDesigns Mind sharing what you are using as alternatives? Mind you, I have not done a ton of my own research as to what is out there beside mac and windows (for a production environment. I'm team windows at the shop and at home). Everything that I use (more or less) live in that ecosystem. How are you escaping the grasp of Micro$oft? Or are you a mac house with windows running in a bunch of VMs?

Now mileage will more then likely very from person to person. Only thing that I would highly advise is actually looking into what alternatives (if anyway) are available that fit "your" needs. And a lot of people do still believe that the issues of the 90s and early aughts still exist and they don't, but I digress.

Bare in mind, the easiest factor that was in my favor that allow me to switch is the fact that I rarely get proprietary format files from customers. When I do get customer supplied files, they are raster files, just about any platform can handle those.

I'm actually a Linux house with one bare metal install of Win 8.1. I do have VMs on my main office rig that run Vista, 7 and 8.1. Vista (I do prefer that UI over XP (I hated XP with a passion)), Win 7 and Win 8.1 run in VMs. Within Vista, I run Win 98 (essentially a VM within a VM, surprisingly it runs near natively as if it was on bare metal (the main reason why I always suggest have an appropriately spec'ed out computer for VMs)), but mainly to play old DOS games and some of the early Windows games that I enjoyed playing. I do run one Linux VM that I use for web app/electron development for in house solutions (where able).

Win 7 and 8.1 is where I kept my production programs going. When I first went to Linux, this was more of a "crutch", so I wouldn't lose efficiency and I had something to fall back on if needed. Sometimes there wasn't a Linux equivalent, but that has changed for the one program that that applied to. Now, I do the VMing more out of nostalgia then anything else.

Now, while I'm on Linux as a platform, I do still use closed source programs on Linux (Substance Painter (which may not be around for Linux anymore since Adobe bought that suite of tools) and Caldera (RIP)). The other programs are your usual open source fair. Inkscape (Ai), Scribus (Id, but also used to help prep SVGs for being used as print files), Krita (Corel Painter). I do run Blender, but I never have used a closed source alternative to that, always used Blender. I actually did not use Ps a whole helluva lot, so I don't even have Gimp (Krita is not a Ps alternative even though a lot of people seem to think that it is) installed and if a distro that I'm on uses it, I uninstall it anyway. Inkscape has a lot of plugins that allow for different things, so Inkscape is actually being used as my digitizing program as well.

I do run other programs for animation and html5 game dev work. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion.

It's not easy to make the switch and not every one can or wants to (and that's fine). I'm just fed up with the direction that some things are going. Don't get me wrong, I really liked Adobe programs, I do like Windows (I really do), it's the extra crap that has gone with it that I don't particularly care for. If that was stripped away, I would still be on Windows, I would still be using Adobe, but times have changed. Either change with them or they change you.

It's not for everyone and it isn't easy, one reason why I originally started those VMs, to help during the rough patches of the learning curve. To me, I enjoy using computers again, so for me it was worth it (that's not going to be everyone, for some they are just a means to an end and that's fine).

 

[Bobby H]

Adobe, for better or worse, is wielding more and more of a monopoly hammer to pound on the heads of anyone in creative industries. I've been using Adobe software on my own for almost 30 years -even for a decent period of time when my workplace wasn't buying Adobe products. Today it is getting increasingly difficult to handle many kinds of branding assets without having the appropriate kinds of Adobe-branded software or technologies to process it. For instance we have a couple projects going on which require the latest versions of Adobe Illustrator and Adobe PDF technology to output. The free-form gradient feature is the critical factor there. No rival draw-type vector graphics program has anything comparable to it. So what do you tell the customer if you refuse to buy the Adobe software that can support those bells and whistles?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

So what do you tell the customer if you refuse to buy the Adobe software that can support those bells and whistles?

We've gone through this many, many times, but here we go again.

I've been in my trade in some capacity since 1994 (started when I was a young kid working for my mom). From then to now, I can count on 2 hands how many times I've gotten a proprietary file format as a source file and that's even the ones from branding agencies and my getting proprietary files at all has dropped to null for the last 10 yrs. And it wasn't always an Adobe file at that. The vast, vast, vast majority of the time it's some type of raster file. Sometimes it's a pdf container with a vector file, more and more getting to be SVG (which Adobe and Corel's SVG support sucks big time at least based on the last time I used those software packages, and since I've been getting into more HTML5 work, what Inkscape is able to do is really shining forth).

The industry standard software for the full version (and by full version, I'm defining as having all the a la carte modules licensed and running on "your" computer) doesn't even come with Ai, but DRAW. So after spending $15k, just have 2 programs, the digitizing program, plus DRAW (and so far, not even the latest version at that).

Now, in terms of this:

The free-form gradient feature is the critical factor there.

Gradients don't process well in embroidery digitizing packages, because the programs are always trying to set up the file in case the user wants to do an auto convert and doing a true gradient doesn't fit to well with the schema of auto converting. So in order to get an Ai file (or any file with gradients using stand alone digitizing software) with any gradients, even the ones supported by eps v.8, the file has to be rasterized. So what is the point of having a master file at that point?

So as you can see in my situation, and only my situation, these are none issues. I have to wonder how many more situations (I'm talking in general here, not with anyone specifically, certainly not you specifically) mirror that and don't really have to have (wanting and having are two different things) certain software packages?

 

[Bobby H]

Yeah, here we go again. You, in your embroidery business, do not need any Adobe software or any other software that involves a subscription. Heard that loud and clear. Count yourself lucky that you're in the unique situation of ditching MS Windows and telling Adobe and anyone else wanting to charge a subscription fee for software to jump off a cliff. The problem is the circumstances and customer expectations in the sign industry are far different than yours.

You may have received customer provided art files only twice ever that posed any technical problems with your embroidery work flow. Again, your experience does not apply to everyone else. It is very opposite from my own experience. I've seen quite the smorgasbord of customer provided art files over the years. Many of them have required Adobe Illustrator to open properly. Most rival applications (CorelDRAW in particular) stink at importing AI, EPS or PDF files accurately. There is a laundry list of Illustrator features and effects that are not supported or duplicated by rival vector drawing programs. Free-form gradients is only the latest example. Art and pattern brushes have been part of Illustrator for decades, but if those effects aren't "expanded" they're very likely to break when imported into a rival drawing application. There are many other examples. Then there's the issue of customer provided art files plagued with technical problems. Such files not only tend to require the original host problem to diagnose and fix issues, some application-specific plug-ins (like Astute Graphics' Vector First Aid) might be necessary to salvage the file.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Yeah, here we go again.

Hey, you were the one that asked. I was only replying to a direct question.

You, in your embroidery business, do not need any Adobe software or any other software that involves a subscription.

Well, that may not be totally true. There is some software that if I didn't create it myself (albeit just browser/electron based), I would need a subscription. So people in a similar boat that don't have the desire/ability to do that that to are in the embroidery business may have to deal with some form of subscription based software. Even within the same industry there are different needs from one shop to the next.

The problem is the circumstances and customer expectations in the sign industry are far different than yours.

Do you know what the irony is here? By far, the majority of my digitizing customers are either ad agencies or sign shops (they either outsource to a closer embroidery shop or they have it in house). You would think that the needs of both of those groups would bleed into what they would expect from me. If nothing else do the main fact that it's what's expected of them.

There isn't as much of a difference as you would imagine.

Bare in mind, let's say that I do get Ai files. As long as the originator of those files did not turn off the default pdf compatibility, I can actually use 3rd party programs to view and extract what I need to do my job (now, I don't know if 3rd party file breaking effects were used or not, I may be singing a different tone in regard to that). Think of what I do is more in line with what the Vector Doctor does (in case you ever wondered, this is why so many embroidery digitizers also offer vector conversion services as well, not much different between the 2 at all when get down to the nitty gritty). I don't have to manipulate the original source file at all. So I tend not to need even a properly formed file (as long as it renders how the client wants, that's the biggest condition).

You may have received customer provided art files only twice ever that posed any technical problems with your embroidery work flow.

And in most instances it was related to font substitution more then anything else. That and the ole clipping masks out the ying yang.

Now, if I was doing cut vinyl with these files, oh boy, would those be a mess.

Again, your experience does not apply to everyone else. It is very opposite from my own experience.

Ditto with your experience not applying to everyone else as well, even within the same industry. Only thing that I ever do is suggest to people to look for alternatives where they can if something about what's going on with their current software is making life difficult for them (waiting around still spending money with those vendors and complaining about not having this that or the other or it being subscription just isn't me). Sometimes they can't do that and that's fine. In other instances, they may very well be able to. My suggestion would be to take a very good hard look. I started using Adobe way back when because I fell into the marketing hype. Turns out, I didn't need it as much as a originally thought that I did. Had they not gone subscription only, they would still be getting my money. I loved the software.

But unless their current model changes (which I highly doubt), I'll just be using alternatives. As my understanding of HTML5 canvas grows, may even be able to get the basics of what I need as time goes on. Never know when someone is highly motivated to do something.

Again, I have no problem with people needing to use software (even if I don't need/want to use the same software). I just always suggest that people continue to evaluate what's good for their business as time moves on. Either change with the times or the times change you. A decision that "you" made 20+ yrs ago, may not be as good today as it was back then. Only thing that I'm suggesting here.

 

[WhiskeyDreamer]

Count yourself lucky that you're in the unique situation of ditching MS Windows and telling Adobe and anyone else wanting to charge a subscription fee for software to jump off a cliff. The problem is the circumstances and customer expectations in the sign industry are far different than yours.

Been doing this nineteen years, and I've never owned or worked on a version of Adobe software. I don't think it's a requirement for a sign shop to have Adobe. Maybe it is for you and what you're creating, but don't lump us all together.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Such files not only tend to require the original host problem to diagnose and fix issues, some application-specific plug-ins (like Astute Graphics' Vector First Aid) might be necessary to salvage the file.

I had meant to mention this in one of our numerous subscription talks, but I had forgotten about it, but then I got an email from Astute Graphics just this morning.

Now, I want to add in, I do like their plugins (at least the ones for CS6, which when I had got the suite of plugins First Aid wasn't among them). I do like Ai (want to mention that again).

Like I said, I got an email from Astute Graphics talking about a discount for their subscription plan for their plugins. Yet another item (or suite of items rather) going to subscription based only going forward for new "purchases". It's not necessary the money in of itself. We use these tools to make money, so if we are pricing things correctly, this shouldn't be an issue. Our inputs go up, so do our prices and all that good stuff (or we absorb it for a time). The issue is lack of control (not ownership, we don't own any software unless we have said software's source code (regardless if you know what to do with it or not)). They can dictate just about any policy change (Adobe has done that already, they tried to do a price hike on the Photography Bundle and that didn't go over well (I think it was about 100% increase from the original pricing) and essentially making their software rolling release by only allowing users to be on x-1 version (with x being the current version)) and we have to lump it.

Yearly releases do not make for properly tested products. They just don't. They don't allow for a version to get really rock solid stable. Not everyone has issues with a release, but there are some that do. It sucks when "you" are one of them. And no matter what, not all bugs are taken care of in beta, but certainly not when users are in a perpetual state of beta. And when people are dealing with a production environment, these conditions do not make for the most stable of environments.

You have people complaining about the latest version of Flexi (and apparently some feature development history as well), you have some people complaining about the course and latest version of Corel DRAW (which I believe you are one of them). With less control over the stability of one's software (in terms of what version you are running at the time) means that one has to deal with the normal ups and downs that makes up software development as it happens. Not much of a choice of being able to wait a version of two for new features to be more stable (or just plain stable) and feature complete.

Now, if can't (or flat out don't want to switch away) that's a legit reason, just doesn't make for the best of production environments and there are going to be issues. I'm by no means saying to just run a legacy environment even when getting new machines. Situations change and it's best to always make sure that the course that one is on is still the best course to be on. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Shoot every version of software that I get now, I still get the Windows and Mac versions just in case I have to switch again. Nice thing about the stuff that I make being browser/electron based, it's also cross platform.

And I'm sure that with most commercial closed source software vendors going subscription, there isn't going to be much ability to avoid subscription at some point, unless able to create in house tools for some of the programs, but running the entire production workflow with a la carte subscriptions, just seems no bueno in my mind. Particularly when what control users had is no longer there. I don't like lack of control with production software and I sure don't like it with my OS (thinking of Windows more here and mandatory updates as well as telemetry).

 

[Bobby H]

Been doing this nineteen years, and I've never owned or worked on a version of Adobe software. I don't think it's a requirement for a sign shop to have Adobe. Maybe it is for you and what you're creating, but don't lump us all together.

I've been in this business even longer. It's possible for a sign shop not to use any Adobe software at all and use whatever it likes if the shop is creating all of its work from scratch.

When you have to use artwork from a broad variety of clients (national brands down to mom and pop operations) you're going to come in contact with a lot of Adobe-centric stuff. It's far easier and faster to work with those assets using Adobe's software than wasting lots of time trying to make it work in rival applications. Likewise, the same rule holds true about CorelDRAW files. It's far easier to handle a customer provided CDR file within CorelDRAW rather than attempt to import it into a rival application. I typically only receive CorelDRAW files from other sign companies.

You have people complaining about the latest version of Flexi (and apparently some feature development history as well), you have some people complaining about the course and latest version of Corel DRAW (which I believe you are one of them). With less control over the stability of one's software (in terms of what version you are running at the time) means that one has to deal with the normal ups and downs that makes up software development as it happens. Not much of a choice of being able to wait a version of two for new features to be more stable (or just plain stable) and feature complete.

I don't like the situation of software vendors increasingly going the subscription route any more than anyone else. But that's the reality. Adobe is doing very well with the approach because they have much of the advertising industry bent over the barrel. They make a few industry leading applications that are de facto tools of choice. The only ways I see Adobe backing off the subscription only approach is either by way of a serious economic downturn or the DOJ breaking up Adobe on anti-trust grounds.

I think others are going to fail attempting to copy Adobe's subscription only choice. I think Corel is going to risk dooming itself with this new perpetual license upgrade policy. Corel doesn't have the kind of leverage over its user base as Adobe does; CorelDRAW is popular only in a couple niche areas (like the sign industry). And lower cost rival applications (Affinity Designer, Vectornator Pro, etc) are steadily improving. At some point they will challenge CorelDRAW's relevance.

I don't know what to think of Astute Graphics' move to a sort-of subscription-based sales model. I'm not sure I understand the setup correctly. It sounds like you pay $119 to get all 16 of their Illustrator plug-ins, plus 12 months of updates and any new plugins that are released for free during that time period. If you don't want to renew the next year you get to keep the plugins you have. Is that right?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I've been in this business even longer. It's possible for a sign shop not to use any Adobe software at all and use whatever it likes if the shop is creating all of its work from scratch.

When you have to use artwork from a broad variety of clients (national brands down to mom and pop operations) you're going to come in contact with a lot of Adobe-centric stuff. It's far easier and faster to work with those assets using Adobe's software than wasting lots of time trying to make it work in rival applications.

I've been at this since the summer of 1994, long time (working under someone at that time) and I've dealt with a wide variety of clients. Most of the work that I do is customer supplied. When I create my own designs, it's usually for stock designs. Sometimes commissioned here and there by a person in which case they wanted all rights to the files, but by and large, customer supplied is a very big part of my business.

In order to be able to get 100% compatibility with Ai files and still be able to do my work, I would have to spend $3k on a plugin that directly in Ai (it works directly in Draw as well(and then you're limited to the supported versions of Ai/DRAW)), however I wouldn't be able to work in that program alone, because it doesn't have all the options that I would need to run some of my machines. The $15k program that I use that comes bundles with DRAW (hardly ever the current version at that) still doesn't play nicely with Ai. Even if I were to bring into Ai and then export in say EPS8 for max compatibility and to maintain vectors, still no promises.

So either way, even if I did have all of the programs, there still isn't a sure thing of everything working correctly.

And that's after spending far more then just for one set of subscription no matter if I go the plugin or main digitizing route.

I don't like the situation of software vendors increasingly going the subscription route any more than anyone else. But that's the reality. Adobe is doing very well with the approach because they have much of the advertising industry bent over the barrel. They make a few industry leading applications that are de facto tools of choice.

Are they really the de facto tools of choice or do they have the perception of being the de facto tools of choice? At one time, they may have been the only tools of choice because they were the only came in town, just like at one time, one had had to be using Macs due to more programs/abilities were available for that platform (or exclusive to it).

At this stage in the game, I can't but help to think about how much of this could be attributed to consumer apathy then anything else. Either they don't know of options, don't care about options, or they buy into that marketing hype that you can only be in this trade if using X (kinda like how some Mac people are).

The only ways I see Adobe backing off the subscription only approach is either by way of a serious economic downturn or the DOJ breaking up Adobe on anti-trust grounds.

Doesn't have to be a country wide economic downturn, just a downturn that affects Adobe.

Or you start to have programs that get so much of a buzz about them that they get the apathetic consumer to start thinking about other options. I'm seeing some of this in the 3D world with release of Blender 2.8 and quite a few companies have started to at least give a very public display of being behind Blender as well. At least, if nothing else legitimizing Blender as an option. And that perception means a lot.

I think others are going to fail attempting to copy Adobe's subscription only choice. I think Corel is going to risk dooming itself with this new perpetual license upgrade policy. Corel doesn't have the kind of leverage over its user base as Adobe does; CorelDRAW is popular only in a couple niche areas (like the sign industry). And lower cost rival applications (Affinity Designer, Vectornator Pro, etc) are steadily improving. At some point they will challenge CorelDRAW's relevance.

I don't know. Most consumers are getting to the point of being desensitized to the whole subscription thing. Almost everything in the commercial sector is going that way. Even in some areas, where the consumer used to pay for bundles, they are now getting things a la carte, because every vendor wants a piece of that pie for themselves and trying to do their own proprietary version to keep others from horning in.

I don't know what to think of Astute Graphics' move to a sort-of subscription-based sales model. I'm not sure I understand the setup correctly. It sounds like you pay $119 to get all 16 of their Illustrator plug-ins, plus 12 months of updates and any new plugins that are released for free during that time period. If you don't want to renew the next year you get to keep the plugins you have. Is that right?

I do believe that's correct, however, I highly doubt that it will work that way in practice. Mainly because, Ai is essentially rolling release, you are updating every 2 yrs, maybe even every year depending on how you do it. Then you have 2 major feature updates that are mandated by Windows (at most one would be on any LTS version for 18 months before it goes EOL). Between those 2 variables of always being bleeding edge, to keep up and to make sure there isn't breakage, "your" plugins would also need to be up to snuff as well. So while there may be the technical option from Astute, I doubt that in practice it will last as long as one would hope. I would go ahead and just plan for it to be another subscription service. "You" might be able to alternate years of when paying, but I'm sure there will be something that gets "you".

 

[Bobby H]

Are they really the de facto tools of choice or do they have the perception of being the de facto tools of choice?

Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign have been ruling the roost of the print graphics and publishing world. Adobe is not dominating that market out of customer apathy either. The 3 applications have close integration with each other which is completely unmatched by anyone else. Those 3 applications have far more third party plug-ins made for them than any of their rivals. Freehand was the only non-Adobe drawing program that played reasonably well with Photoshop yet that program is dead now.

Adobe has taken over much of the video industry in recent years, due to how well Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects and Premiere Pro integrate with each other. That has been a fairly recent development, one that was aided greatly by the development of Dynamic Link. Adobe was also aided via Apple's fiasco with Final Cut X. There are other serious rivals in the video production space. I think Blackmagic Design one of the most credible. They produce a lot of true professional level video hardware (which Adobe does not do). DaVinci Resolve and Fusion are great applications, and both are very affordable. Yet any video production studio or TV station using those products is still very likely to need Photoshop and Illustrator added to that mix.

Or you start to have programs that get so much of a buzz about them that they get the apathetic consumer to start thinking about other options. I'm seeing some of this in the 3D world with release of Blender 2.8 and quite a few companies have started to at least give a very public display of being behind Blender as well. At least, if nothing else legitimizing Blender as an option. And that perception means a lot.

3D modeling and animation programs tend to be stand-alone kinds of animals. So it wouldn't surprise me if a greatly improved application such as Blender 2.8 posed a very credible challenge to the big boys on the commercial side of it (Maya, Cinema4D, Studio 3D Max, etc). Commercial 3D applications, ones that are very good, are also very expensive and way out of reach for most people. Blender is far more accessible.

The market Adobe plays within is very different. No one single application does it all at creating graphics for print, web or video. Applications that specialize in image editing, page layout and vector graphic creation are stronger than one app that tries to do everything. An upstart that wants to challenge Adobe has to do everything better than Adobe or at least match everything Adobe's apps can do and charge less money. No rival to Adobe offers that at this point.

I do believe that's correct, however, I highly doubt that it will work that way in practice. Mainly because, Ai is essentially rolling release, you are updating every 2 yrs, maybe even every year depending on how you do it. Then you have 2 major feature updates that are mandated by Windows (at most one would be on any LTS version for 18 months before it goes EOL). Between those 2 variables of always being bleeding edge, to keep up and to make sure there isn't breakage, "your" plugins would also need to be up to snuff as well. So while there may be the technical option from Astute, I doubt that in practice it will last as long as one would hope. I would go ahead and just plan for it to be another subscription service. "You" might be able to alternate years of when paying, but I'm sure there will be something that gets "you".

The situation with Astute Graphics' plug-ins already works that way to some degree. Under the "old" perpetual license arrangement I've already had to buy version upgrades of plug-ins because the old ones weren't forward compatible with a new version of Illustrator. Astute Graphics would also remove the old plug-ins from their "universal installer." In the past they made it possible to download individual plug-in installers, but that is gone now. And the last vestige of CS6 support is their "legacy unified installer."

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Adobe has taken over much of the video industry in recent years, due to how well Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects and Premiere Pro integrate with each other.

Isn't Avid still the standard though? I realize they may have lost ground, but I still think it has the largest market share. Or has that totally tanked?

DaVinci Resolve and Fusion are great applications, and both are very affordable. Yet any video production studio or TV station using those products is still very likely to need Photoshop and Illustrator added to that mix.

Davinci Resolve even comes with a free version. Now, last time that I checked on Linux, it's only an RPM file. Ironically, RPM and DEB files are actually just archive files. Extract, drag and drop. Easy to get it on a debian based rig. Unless running a very base install and need to work some dependency magic, but even that's easy to do as well. That's why it doesn't matter which package manager that a vendor supports. It really doesn't.

The market Adobe plays within is very different. No one single application does it all at creating graphics for print, web or video. Applications that specialize in image editing, page layout and vector graphic creation are stronger than one app that tries to do everything. An upstart that wants to challenge Adobe has to do everything better than Adobe or at least match everything Adobe's apps can do and charge less money. No rival to Adobe offers that at this point.

Jack of all trades, master of none and all that jazz. Which kinda makes me wonder why people want Adobe to add niche industry features (regardless if the they think that it should be a simple addition or not), when it is beyond the application's brief.

The situation with Astute Graphics' plug-ins already works that way to some degree. Under the "old" perpetual license arrangement I've already had to buy version upgrades of plug-ins because the old ones weren't forward compatible with a new version of Illustrator. Astute Graphics would also remove the old plug-ins from their "universal installer." In the past they made it possible to download individual plug-in installers, but that is gone now. And the last vestige of CS6 support is their "legacy unified installer."

One exception to then and now. One could stay on the version of Ai for as long as their computer was up and running and/or Adobe kept that version's activation server running. One doesn't have that option at all anymore. My plugins I have had running since 2015. Would have had a least a couple of changes on plugin versions now with Adobe's new upgrading schema.

 

[Bobby H]

Isn't Avid still the standard though? I realize they may have lost ground, but I still think it has the largest market share. Or has that totally tanked?

Avid is still popular on the high end, where their software has been entrenched for a much longer time. On the sound editing angle, Pro Tools is still the king of professional-level audio editing applications. Nevertheless, all the local TV stations in my viewing market are using Adobe software. Radio stations have been migrating over to Adobe Audition. And that's despite some of the legal drama between Adobe and Dolby which is now affecting that program.

It's now impossible to do 5.1 surround encoding from within Audition without having to spend a serious chunk of money for third party applications like SurCode to perform the 5.1/7.1 encoding process. Before the legal hassles took hold it was possible to use a stock version of Audition to create a surround track in Dolby Digital 5.1 or Dolby Digital Plus 7.1. So now if I have a video project that needs genuine surround sound I'm going to have a fun choice to make. If I have to pay for a third party surround sound encoder plug-in or stand-alone app, I might be more inclined to choose DTS rather than Dolby. Really the only Dolby surround format that interests me at all is Atmos. And there is no affordable access to that. So that leaves the conventional 5.1/7.1 layouts. All surround sound systems sold these days support both Dolby and DTS. Every Blu-ray player and UHD Blu-ray player can decode DTS as well as Dolby bit streams. So if Dolby is going to force me to spend extra money on surround sound encoding software I might as well go with DTS rather than Dolby. DTS is a better format for 5.1 and 7.1 audio due to the higher bit rates and more mild levels of lossy audio compression. Atmos is fantastic since it offers lossless audio compression as well as all kinds of object-based 3D position surround panning of individual audio elements. But that requires a Mac computer and a much more expensive license for audio encoding.

Davinci Resolve even comes with a free version. Now, last time that I checked on Linux, it's only an RPM file. Ironically, RPM and DEB files are actually just archive files. Extract, drag and drop. Easy to get it on a debian based rig. Unless running a very base install and need to work some dependency magic, but even that's easy to do as well. That's why it doesn't matter which package manager that a vendor supports. It really doesn't.

I don't know about all of that. But the regular versions of DaVinci Resolve for Windows and OSX cost $299. For what that application can do it seems like a bargain. The same $299 price applies to Fusion. And Fusion is an application that once commanded several grand in order to use. Funny thing: for a brief time Fusion was available to use for free. Still, $299 for pro-level software from a company that makes high quality video cameras and video editing hardware seems like a great bargain. Really I think the DaVinci Resolve and Fusion software functions as a loss leader to get users hooked into the Blackmagic ecosystem. Use the software. Then get attracted to the editing consoles and video camera systems. Cha-ching! $$$

Jack of all trades, master of none and all that jazz. Which kinda makes me wonder why people want Adobe to add niche industry features (regardless if the they think that it should be a simple addition or not), when it is beyond the application's brief.

Jack of all trades, master of none. Yeah, you know full well 100% Adobe does not fall into that category. Photoshop is THE image editor. Period. Name any pixel level image editor that can even lift Photoshop's jock strap. The same goes for InDesign. Nothing compares to it either. Illustrator has more rivals. Nevertheless, in my own experience, unless the files are coming from another sign company all of the pro-level brand assets coming into my shop are Illustrator-based AI or PDF files.

One exception to then and now. One could stay on the version of Ai for as long as their computer was up and running and/or Adobe kept that version's activation server running. One doesn't have that option at all anymore. My plugins I have had running since 2015. Would have had a least a couple of changes on plugin versions now with Adobe's new upgrading schema.

For all the trouble it takes keeping old software "alive" the effort is hardly worth the bother. I can see running a virtual machine of an old version of Windows running vintage versions of Illustrator, CorelDRAW, etc if you have the install discs handy. But avoiding updates on slightly old software just to avoid spending $40 or $50 here or there on a plug-in update is kind of silly.

Now, Astute Graphics' has taken their own risk level up a notch with this all or nothing $119 deal. I'm still not sure what to think about that. I'm tempted to buy into it since I don't already own all the plug-ins made by Astute Graphics. But still, there is that nagging sting of re-occuring costs if you don't want to renew your software. It's a difficult choice, made even more difficult by the fact Astute Graphics' plug-ins are actually really great.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

And that's despite some of the legal drama between Adobe and Dolby which is now affecting that program.

Actually, that legal drama is what affects their entire range of products as that, at least what has been released to us, is what has caused Adobe to adopt the no older then x-1 on what software a user can be running. Didn't matter if it used that bit of licensed code or not.

That means that if there is a future of a different program that you liked and has been deprecated and removed from a later version. Bye bye feature.

It's now impossible to do 5.1 surround encoding from within Audition without having to spend a serious chunk of money for third party applications like SurCode to perform the 5.1/7.1 encoding process. Before the legal hassles took hold it was possible to use a stock version of Audition to create a surround track in Dolby Digital 5.1 or Dolby Digital Plus 7.1.

You know, I always thought it was strange that they claimed that they don't know what version a person is using at any given time and yet when someone cancels their subscription and a half a minute later goes to open up the program and tells a user that this is the last time that they have access to the program and their file unless they re up their subscription. Just seems a little wonky to me that there isn't telemetry for that already built in.

I don't know about all of that.

Very easy to find all that out.

But the regular versions of DaVinci Resolve for Windows and OSX cost $299. For what that application can do it seems like a bargain. The same $299 price applies to Fusion. And Fusion is an application that once commanded several grand in order to use. Funny thing: for a brief time Fusion was available to use for free. Still, $299 for pro-level software from a company that makes high quality video cameras and video editing hardware seems like a great bargain. Really I think the DaVinci Resolve and Fusion software functions as a loss leader to get users hooked into the Blackmagic ecosystem. Use the software. Then get attracted to the editing consoles and video camera systems. Cha-ching! $$$

I would say that's true, talking about some serious scratch to get that hardware (and it's nice hardware at that). I guess for me it's X Keys and be done with it.

Jack of all trades, master of none. Yeah, you know full well 100% Adobe does not fall into that category.

Interesting. I said that actually backing up and agreeing what what you said and you take it in a whole nother direction. Very interesting.

For all the trouble it takes keeping old software "alive" the effort is hardly worth the bother. I can see running a virtual machine of an old version of Windows running vintage versions of Illustrator, CorelDRAW, etc if you have the install discs handy. But avoiding updates on slightly old software just to avoid spending $40 or $50 here or there on a plug-in update is kind of silly.

It actually isn't about the plugins, the plugins just compound the problem of the current trend of software vendors. My main issue, is the lack of control that the user has with the main programs. The only time that cost becomes a factor is the user is typically paying more for less control over the life time of using said software. If you have to use (Not want to use, but HAVE to use, there is a difference) all of them or just a single one, then it does slightly work into your favor (unless just starting out). If you need something like Design Premium or Production Premium, 7 yrs one is paying more then if you had the perpetual license AND upgraded every new iteration (yes that comparison is including being current on the perpetual license as well). Less control (what I really don't like) and more cost (at least for me, if you use one or all, and you aren't going to be running it for more then 22 yrs, it works out in your favor, providing no price hikes in that time, which has already happened, albeit just a few bucks per month and not like the price hike that they were trying to do for their Photography Package).

Now, Astute Graphics' has taken their own risk level up a notch with this all or nothing $119 deal. I'm still not sure what to think about that. I'm tempted to buy into it since I don't already own all the plug-ins made by Astute Graphics. But still, there is that nagging sting of re-occuring costs if you don't want to renew your software. It's a difficult choice, made even more difficult by the fact Astute Graphics' plug-ins are actually really great.

Quite a few are doing that as well and not just within the software industry. Used to be able to purchase a la carte what you wanted and have a copy of it to do with as you please. Now, have to keep paying and have a perpetual internet connection for access (not necessarily the plugins, thinking of something else that was also toying with that payment schema).



Edit to Add:

With regard to this:

....if you have the install discs handy

I would highly suggest backing up discs as ISOs, if it's an OS and/or program that "you" may want to try to preserve.

I don't see optical drives being a mainstay at all any longer. I don't see them installed on as many towers as I once did. Plus their expected life span is fairly short, some lasting longer then others depending on what type of optical disc.

Plus most current OSs will automatically mount and display ISOs as if they were physical discs in a physical drive. VM software will also do the same for the guest OS as well.

If "you" do plan on doing this, use disc burning software. It's been my experience that archiving software (which some do support writing ISOs) may truncate file names without warning. That will cause the installer helper program not to find the file. While most disc burning software (again in my experience) will give a warning that "you" can override.