Before and After Cleaning Service Logo

[Biker Scout]

Right, good point. Never mix an italicized font with a script. That lowercase "o" is almost an "a" | Tap ta Battam

 

[J Hill Designs]

Right, good point. Never mix an italicized font with a script. That lowercase "o" is almost an "a" | Tap ta Battam

based in chicago, perhaps

 

[Chriswagner92]

even the b&w looks awesome, good work.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Right, good point. Never mix an italicized font with a script. That lowercase "o" is almost an "a" | Tap ta Battam

NEVER mix scripts and italicized copy? That's a new one to me. Hey I'm all for learning new things, but if I'm to follow that rule in the future, it would be nice to understand the logic behind it. The only time I've ever heard anything like that is that when you use the italicized version of a font with a script, sometimes the angles don't match, but that isn't the case with this. I made sure that they were at the same angle.

So if there is a reason, I'm all ears. I can tell you why I chose to make it italic. It was a conscious decision. I did it because the main copy is angled, the cartoon is angled, and it looked out of place when the secondary copy wasn't also angled, especially when it's nested beside the descender in the "p".

I do know that if it is a rule, I see amazing graphic designers that I look up to breaking that one all the time.

 

[Biker Scout]

It's a visual clutter thing. Now, you can sometimes get away with it if it "looks right". But the rule is to keep people from using lower case serif'd fonts with scripts. They are competing elements. You used a san serif, which is OK. But you still need to ground, or anchor your elements.

Secondly, you have to match the angles perfectly. As you can see in my example, they are not perfect. I noticed it right off, but I'm anal about symmetry and lines and stuff like that. The problem with exact matching your choice of title font script with the subset font, in this case the tag, you'd have to angle the script even more. And even though it's only 1.5° more, visually it's practically falling off the cliff and goes beyond "slanted" all the way to "skewed". And that's never good. It visually disrupts.

Now I get that you were trying to create "motion" and forward movement. But that's really a subtly of the inherent design of a spinning top and the swirls and the script font. Not everything has to lean to one side. It makes the reader's head tilt subconsciously.

 

[Biker Scout]

Just for my own curiosity... I googled the term, "Never mix italics with script fonts" and not surprisingly, I'm not the only one who knows this.

 

[TammieH]

I see nothing wrong with the new logo, I do have one thought, is there a longer horizontal version? With the Maid/Top to the side and "Top to Bottom" larger for something like possible a 2x8?

 

[Joe Diaz]

Just for my own curiosity... I googled the term, "Never mix italics with script fonts" and not surprisingly, I'm not the only one who knows this.

View attachment 98355

Well when you search for "you shouldn't breathe air" you get a lot of search results too. But that probably isn't a rule I'll want to follow. If you know anything about search engines and I know you probably do. It searches for your phrase first but if it cannot find that exact phrase, it does the next best thing and tracks down content that includes those words but they won't necessarily be in that order. What you posted is a prefect example of that. The only search result that is close to your google search is the first one... and if you look at that site it says:

Don’t mix script fonts with italic fonts. Both are slanted but they might not slant in the same way.

So that leads me to believe that the author of that statement, who's work at first glance isn't really all that impressive, but that's besides the point, is saying really that the reason they believe you shouldn't use scripts and fonts is because the angles wont match. So if that is the reason, and the angles do match in my design then I'm not really breaking their rule.

It's like using black and red together. There are rules about that, but there is logic behind those rules. That is what I would need if I were to avoid using italics and scripts in the future.

And see I don't like your example. It's how It looked on my screen before I changed it. For one thing it's now off balance one thing I was trying to avoid, your crowding the lettering above it, and it clashes with everything else, because everything else is consistently angled but that. Sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think I'm going to stick with what I have here. I do appreciate the critique though.

 

[shoresigns]

I didn't notice the 1.5 degree difference there - maybe that was part of why something looked "off" to me. Biker Scout's quick mockup looks good, especially, the slogan. "Commercial Cleaning" needs a bit of breathing room though - it's almost too big now.

I think both fonts do have the style you're looking for, but the quality/attractiveness of the fonts is a bit sub-par. Might just be a matter of opinion though - I am a bit of a typophile.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I see nothing wrong with the new logo, I do have one thought, is there a longer horizontal version? With the Maid/Top to the side and "Top to Bottom" larger for something like possible a 2x8?

Yes

 

[Biker Scout]

I did get a little too happy with my sizing. And I noticed it after I posted it. And I would give it more breathing room too.

Yes Joe, your logo does have vertical balance. But when it's in it's horizontal state, the wording "Commercial Cleaning" will become really small.

Make a reverse thumbnail of the logo, both square and horizontal.

The other thing about italics is that they are meant for "Emphasis" rather than to be used as a design element [crutch]. However, on a stand alone bold all caps logo font, italics can indicate "SWIFT" and/or movement. But you've already achieved movement with your swirls, angle of the maid, and the script font. Having yet another element leaning becomes cumbersome and competing for attention.

Don't get me wrong, I love the logo. But I am just clarifying why it's never a good idea to mix italics with script fonts. Debating over google search terms is slightly off topic, even though I was trying to bolster my claim with a flimsy search. I'd much rather have found out why John McWade says it's not a good idea, as he's much better at describing type relationships than I am. I just remember being taught that, and so I don't do it. Good enough for me.

 

[Biker Scout]

Also, when laying out your logo the tag line shouldn't be part of it's overall composition. It needs to stand on it's own, whether or not it's horizontal or vertical.


Here you can see why the larger, bold face font does actually help anchor the logo's weight balance on the right hand side.

 

[thinksigns]

Overall I like the design very much. A couple of suggestions on the arms. Maybe the one with the duster should be angled like she is using it. The other one looks like she is hiding her hand. Not sure how to handle that, it just bugs me.

 

[shoresigns]

I just wanted to add that I really appreciate this discussion. I'm not formally trained in design and there's always more to learn. I went full-on with the constructive criticism because I know Joe is an excellent designer and can take it.

Joe, my best guess on that so-called "rule" about scripts and italics is that it's more about contrast. Contrast is always a key factor when using two fonts together, which is why you would avoid using an italic serif font with a script font, as Biker Scout mentioned. It is absolutely possible to put two similar fonts together and have them complement each other well, but generally speaking, the more similarities the fonts have, the more difficult they are to pair.

 

[nikdoobs]

The first rule of graphic design is that there are no ******* rules! (but there are a lot of things that you probably should do 99% of the time).

I gotta ask... what's the new spin that Top to Bottom offers on Commercial Cleaning?

ETA: (but there are a lot of things that you probably shouldn't do 99% of the time).

 

[nikdoobs]

Overall I like the design very much. A couple of suggestions on the arms. Maybe the one with the duster should be angled like she is using it. The other one looks like she is hiding her hand. Not sure how to handle that, it just bugs me.

+1 on the Angled duster.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I just remember being taught that, and so I don't do it. Good enough for me.

Apparently not. because there are a few examples on your website that have scripts and italics used in the same logo. But either way, you don't wonder the reasons why you follow that rule (well sometimes anyway)

Also, when laying out your logo the tag line shouldn't be part of it's overall composition. It needs to stand on it's own, whether or not it's horizontal or vertical.

It is a stand alone element, just because I posted an example with the slogan included, doesn't mean it's a part of the logo. That is why I put some distance between it and the logo when I posted it.

View attachment 98361

Here you can see why the larger, bold face font does actually help anchor the logo's weight balance on the right hand side.

Well yeah a horizontal layout is going to have different balancing issues. I didn't post my horizontal layout. and my comments on balance were about the edits you did to the vertical layout in which case the balance was off.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Overall I like the design very much. A couple of suggestions on the arms. Maybe the one with the duster should be angled like she is using it. The other one looks like she is hiding her hand. Not sure how to handle that, it just bugs me.

That's a good suggestion thanks. I might do that.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Joe, my best guess on that so-called "rule" about scripts and italics is that it's more about contrast. Contrast is always a key factor when using two fonts together, which is why you would avoid using an italic serif font with a script font, as Biker Scout mentioned. It is absolutely possible to put two similar fonts together and have them complement each other well, but generally speaking, the more similarities the fonts have, the more difficult they are to pair.

I can dig that, but I feel like in this case the fonts have the proper amount of contrast, italicized or not. And if what you said is true, then why would it be ok if neither font were a script but both were italic? So let's say a serif font for the primary copy and a sans-serif font for the secondary, both italicized. You see that all time. If anything those two choices would have even less visual contrast. I made the decision to have it this way because I felt like it visually looks better to have them both italicized, some people might not. It's not the first time folks have disagreed on things involving aesthetics.

 

[Biker Scout]

...few examples on your website that have scripts and italics used in the same logo.

Yeah, those two logos are soooo old, that's back when I was trying to be a sign designer. I didn't know any better. :ROFLMAO: