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Best way to attach to stone

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unclebun

Active Member
Trying to decide how I'm going to hang a sign bracket on a building made of limestone block. The sign that was taken down was also hung from a projecting pole (an electric sign much larger than what we are hanging), and was attached with brackets screwed to drop-in anchors (what people used to call lead anchors). I'm hanging a 2'x3' .080 aluminum sign from a wrought iron bracket. I was planning to use drop in anchors for it, but as I have researched it I am seeing recommendations to use Tapcons or similar. I have used them in concrete and prefer them over drop in anchors in that application. But has anyone done this in stone that can say one is better than the other?
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
I'm thinking he meant these.
images (33).jpeg images (34).jpeg
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
JBurton said:
So the first image that nota posted we call lead anchors. They're great, but they need a tighter tolerance hole to work best. Limestone drills like sand, so I'd opt for the second picture nota shared, what we call a shield, used with a lag bolt, it will nearly double in size by the time it's fully set. That being said, you need to avoid using too long of a lag, or it will blow out the stone when the anchor expands too much. For a projecting sign, I'd also add guy wires to keep the sway of the sign from wiggling the bracket if it's a swinging sign, or to just take windload off the bracket if its rigid.
If you really want to use a screw like a tapcon instead, at least go up to their big brother, the concrete anchor:
View attachment 161768
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Problem in crumbly stone is you are relying on the threads to hold, even with the big one. I'm speculating here.... that would probably give you more shear strength than a small tapcon but pullout force wouldn't be all that much better.
 
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unclebun

Active Member
Thanks for the confirmation everyone. I was intending to use the wedge (drop-in) anchors, but the fact that they hardly carry any of them at the hardware store and when I was trying to research best practices, everyone seems to be saying to use screws directly into the stone was why I came to see if anyone had done that. I was a little scared off the tapcon type screw because I saw some studies from the University of Ontario Engineering department at Missasauga that showed the strength testing of screws in limestone and sandstone. They achieved some farily high strength in pullout and shear, but when they fail they cause the stone to fail--sometimes spectacularly.

I have already had a mounting bracket made that spreads out wider than the baseplate of the sign hanger, and we are going to use the guy wire attachments that were used with the old 4'x6' electric sign that used to hang here.
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
JBurton said:
Oh yeah, especially with a projecting sign. That was just my 'if you insist on a screw only fastener option'. I've had a vendetta with tapcons since I was 14, I've never had one set to the point that I was satisfied. Now a lag and shield, I almost always torque it until the impact stops turning, and it almost always feels solid as can be. And the older the building, the more you'd like to see the wall come down than a chunk of masonry blow out, at least then you can point out that your connection was solid, its those joker's fault, who put this up 100+ years ago! Didn't they figure on me installing a lit cabinet here?!?!

Big problem with tapcons, you only get one shot for a nicely drilled hole, otherwise you're re-placing the bracket, and god forbid you don't go deep enough and just strip them right out. I'm thinking you aren't supposed to drive them with an impact also, not really certain there but instinct says slow torque is better than impact when you are trying to avoid stripping out block/stone.
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I snapped one off today, depth was right but hole probably got crap back in it. I don't like impacts either unless it's nut/bolt. You can't feel the tension like you can with a drill/wrench/ratchet and those wedge style anchors will spin if you over do it. Using impacts with screws, especially tek screws, is a pet peeves of mine.
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
JBurton said:
Man you gotta take your hurricane proofing more seriously! Install lead anchors, so you can pull the hardware out and slap a fancy bolt in it's place between hurricanes! Or set a piece of allthread to put eyenuts on, then use a fancy acorn nut between hurra's.
Click to expand...
Had to tie down the AC condenser at the shop for our upcoming insurance inspection. The electrical whip and ac lines will keep it from going far but that's not good enough for them.
We have accordion shutters at our house, the rich people have impact windows.
 
N

netsol

Active Member
Notarealsignguy said:
I wouldn't trust tapcons to hold a permanent sign, those wedge anchors (lead anchors) would likely be better
Click to expand...
i realize theybprobably sell 100,000,000 of those a year, but i never trust tapcons.
the lead anchors, AND EVER THE STUPID PLASTIC ONES, i can trust to hold
 
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netsol

Active Member
very nice sign job, but a coat of paint on the owner's part wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

realtors tell you, when buying a house, the condition of the front door is most important.

the door area could have been spruced up with one of those $2.99 sample color match cans from home depot
 
Johnny Best

Johnny Best

Active Member
A few things UncleBun. Lags and shields are all anyone used years ago before tapcons came around and you did a great job. I have restored old sandstone installs where the original install used pieces of wood jammed in the hole and screw inserted to expand wood to hole. I like the old bank with the used old doorway. Needs the cracked glass repaired also.
The thing that is curious to me is the guy packing all the cigarettes up at the birdbath.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Yeah, and tell them to put a doorknob in the door. They work better that way.

Nice job on the sign.
 
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