Big Jobs - How do you sell them?

[fresh]

We are a small shop, we are growing and I need help. When a typical client calls or comes in, I know how to estimate/price jobs without doing too much beforehand. I can spend 15 minutes or so discussing their needs & wants, and come up with a price immediately. But with big jobs, I'm all over the place.

I can't really price things without doing a layout, and I DESPISE doing artwork before getting a deposit. So what comes first, the chicken or the egg? This wouldn't be as big of a deal if they would share their budget with me, but apparently people think that as soon as they give me a number, I'm going to do as little as I can for that amount.

So today I've already researched a sign ordinance to see what size sign they are allowed, called the zoning official to verify my findings, came up with a few really cool ideas, and am working on pricing a sign with either illuminated channel letters (which will be subbed out) or dimensional letters (either in-house or gemini.) And after all of my work, the dude can take my information to another sign company and say "can you beat this price?"

What am I doing wrong?

EDIT: My question is really how much time and effort do you initially spend on quoting large, multi-part jobs?

 

[J Hill Designs]

for jobs that are going to include over $10k in orders, I can set aside an hour or three to do the basic research and layouts

edit: NEVER give them anything, even printouts, unless THEIR signature is on YOUR copy

 

[Mosh]

I will do a layout if I think it is going to be a big pay-day, I just don't let the customer take a good copy without a deposit. Sometimes you have to let some art out the door, if you are competing again other shops for the best concept for the signs.

Just NEVER let finished art out without payment....

 

[fresh]

for jobs that are going to include over $10k in orders, I can set aside an hour or three to do the basic research and layouts

edit: NEVER give them anything, even printouts, unless THEIR signature is on YOUR copy

Cool, good to know.

 

[fresh]

I will do a layout if I think it is going to be a big pay-day, I just don't let the customer take a good copy without a deposit. Sometimes you have to let some art out the door, if you are competing again other shops for the best concept for the signs.

Just NEVER let finished art out without payment....

I don't think I can ever do that again. I know of two recent big jobs we lost by sending out concept sketches to long-time clients. Kept following up to see what was going on and getting brushed off by one of them. The MFer took my layout and went to someone else who gave them a better price. The other one took my design and went to someone who "owed him a favor." I can't bring myself to hand over anything anymore without loot in my pocket first.

 

[Gino]

Nothing.




It's called quoting. Nothing spooky about it.

You do your very best, sharpen your pencil and explain what all is involved and you can only hope they see in you what you want them to see. Come across as a scared businessperson hungry for work and they'll leave ya in a second. Sound strong and confident and know your work inside out. Most people in this field today don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground and tend to act the way you're explaining. Set yourself apart with knowing what you know and everything about it and be able to explain anything. Don't fear someone bidding out against you. Customers can smell that a mile away.

We bid jobs from $50. up to $350,000. and we do it all nonchalantly, but believe me, I always have butterflies in my stomach, but my face or voice never show it.

Confidence and knowledge are all you need to land any job.




​

Here ya go. I quoted a guy last week for site signs. 25pcs. Around $68.00 each plus whatever ryders ya need extra. He gets back to me Monday to tell me he's found them much cheaper and at 10 at a time instead of 25. Locally and on-line. I said, Okay, but I have a question for ya. Besides the freight you'll be paying on top.....are they giving you the same thing we're giving you ?? Yeah, I think so. turns out he e-mailed me the quote and blocked out the numbers. Nothing was even close in comparison. I called him and told him what I could do this kind for and he said, well, that's less than them. How about only 10 ?? Gave him that price and said, let me know. Got an e-mail from him this morning and he ordered the 25, plus the ryders at something like $18.50 each. I stopped by his place on my way to a meeting this morning, picked up the deposit check and got his files for the artwork.

I was willing to walk away, but I knew what I was doing and sounded confident in my product.

Here no design or selling needed to be done, just old fashioned product and service. Job will take all but an 1-1/2 hours of printing and under $475 in materials.

 

[Rick]

How big is big? To me 100k is big...
Do they have a logo?
Are you just designing a sign with the current logo?

When it comes to lettering/logo on a building.

You need a drawing to get a vendor to bid on parts you do not manufacture
You might need one to run to the city to verify it can be done.
You will burn up a few hours chatting with the client and looking up the code.
They are going to shop it around.

--- It's part of doing business.

Simple channel or dimensional lettering is simple to price with no design if
you do everything in-house.

Sad to say, most sign shops in competition with you dealing with this type
of work, will design or layout this type of sign will do a freebie drawing.
To most sign shops, it's worth the risk. I still am not convinced on which
way is the best. But I would never design a free logo, wrap, or anything
that takes more than 30 minutes.

You need to make a choice on whether it's worth the risk of losing the client.
But before doing anything, I would make sure this client is actually looking for
a sign or just the cheapest price.

 

[Mosh]

Just saying, some people need to see something to make the sell...I have won bids from a layout and was no where near the lowest cost.....

 

[aaronJREgraphics]

For us it all just depends on the customer if it is someone who has done work with us in the past and is now wanting to place a much larger order than they had in the past then a few hours of our time to come up with some moch-ups and layouts is no big deal. But if it is someone you are not sure on or someone you think is quote hunting and you spend more than a few hours on getting quotes and layouts etc. together than make them aware before had and charge them a basic design fee for youre time so atleast you are covered for youre time. You can never grow unless you take a few shots in the dark just dont get in the habit of shop to go to ta get a control quote lol.

 

[Marlene]

if they are looking for a quote give them that. you can ask what their allowable square footage is as most, at least around here, who are renting space or a building do have a clue as to what they can have for signs. another thing that helps is to know your area basically, meaning this town only allows halo lighted signs (yes, I have a town like that) or this town doesn't allow anthing over 15' from grade. knowing the basic info will do as you can give a quote and base it upon town approved square footage. just quote it. I have an idea of what I'm going to do without doing an actual design so that also helps

 

[fresh]

The job I'm working on right now is for a guy who keeps saying "CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP." Then he shows me pictures of channel letter signs

 

[Rick]

The job I'm working on right now is for a guy who keeps saying "CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP." Then he shows me pictures of channel letter signs

I would not design a thing, I would give him a ball park and be done with him.... sounds like a tire kicker to me.

 

[J Hill Designs]

I would not design a thing, I would give him a ball park and be done with him.... sounds like a tire kicker to me.

yeah easy to give a general quote for channel letters w/o any design

 

[Baz]

Always give a price first. Sounds simple enough but on big jobs there might be multiples and different sizes. Quotes can take up allot of time but to me it's part of business. And the more you quote the faster it gets because you already figured out many common types of signs. I never make up sketches when all i'm asked for is a price. Once a price is set (or ballpark figure) then you can ask for deposits and start making layouts. I've only lost on small jobs because i refused to supply artwork along with my quote. No big deal to me. I'm not into designing contests.

Just this afternoon i spent two hours detailing prices for a real estate company out of town who is starting to work in my area. It's a two hour investment in what could be a potentially long term client. That's a gamble i'm willing to take anyday. Plus they already had their layouts. Just had to list prices on many different sizes and styles of installation that i offer.

 

[James Burke]

I'm working on revising our quoting process to include various "qualifying" factors that help me weed out the tire kickers a lot sooner. It's always going to be a guessing game, but I've learned it's always better to get "down to brass tacks" up front. Even if it means losing a potential client sooner...rather than later, after you've spent valuable time trying to figure out what they want.


JB

 

[GypsyGraphics]

i just sent out a quote on a job (although not a big one) fully spec'ed with all the call-outs, the client could have the sign fabricated without every coming back to me. i'd be a little worried that i haven't heard back from him yet......
IF
he didn't have a $2,000 on account that i can bill against. which I WILL do if he takes the work elsewhere.
but if he just decides stick with his temp sign for a while... than i'll eat the time i spent on it. no biggy

i'm giving him another day or two before i call him on it

 

[Sign Up Graphics]

Sign Up Graphics

 

[Rick]

EDIT: My question is really how much time and effort do you initially spend on quoting large, multi-part jobs?

It's a trick question, how big and complicated?

--- Qualify the client first.
--- If "cheap, cheap, cheap" come out of their mouth, you don't go designing a dual lit, cap-less letter with brushed stainless steel returns and 1/4" thick aluminum backer that stands off the wall 1" cuz your gonna need a drawing.

I would say, 1-2 hours max...

But here is an example of a sign, from design to completion had 200 hours that I billed on it, let alone the sign shop who invested their time in selling it.... all spec, so you really have to decide for yourself how far out you want to go..

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i just sent out a quote on a job, fully spec'ed with all the call-outs, the client could have the sign fabricated without every coming back to me. i'd be a little worried that i haven't heard back from him yet......
IF
he didn't have a $2,000 on account that i can bill against. which I WILL do if he takes the work elsewhere.
but if he just decides stick with his temp sign for a while... than i'll eat the time i spent on it. no biggy

i'm giving him another day or two before i call him on it

Noooo, don't eat it!!!!
You took a lot of time to specify that sign and the client was okay with it. It's part of him doing business...
Consultants like us get paid for our time. It is a nice drawing by the way... you should hang it on your wall.

 

[KevSign]

As I know couple clients (guys) came by my shop. He told me had government contract, know Honda, Stapes Etc... At the end just promised, talk a lot but not thing going.
Client came buy less talk straight to the point quote and get project going.
From now who come to our shop ask a lot questions or promised I am not spend time with them.

 

[Marlene]

The job I'm working on right now is for a guy who keeps saying "CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP." Then he shows me pictures of channel letter signs ​

worst idea ever are cheap channel letters. you must have some in your town that look horrid and always have a letter out. tell him that you don't deal in that type of sign but you can get him a welcome constructed set of channel letters that have a UL label and don't need service every two days.