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bringing offset inhouse
- Thread starter sydpos
- Start date
this is a bit curve ball...
we job out to offset printers several short (their min order is x250) cmyk A2 poster runs weekly, always required trimmed to bleed (borderless)
i would like to bring this inhouse to work our own (unpurchased, undecided) lfp, especially as clients often don't want 250, only 100 or 150 A2s
we also get a couple of other primarily short (1-10) run poster jobs (A1, A0) & the odd sticker etc which we also job out & could bring in house & build upon (we run km6500 and provide design and print services)
some posters are displayed on small billboard hoardings for up to a couple of weeks, they are glued up with wallpaper paste & brooms, but probably most are displayed internally. i havent tested but was advised these should be ok (printed on epson aqueous ink wouldn’t run because microporous paper would trap ink)
I see my options as a) aqueous pigment ink epson T7000, 44", I believe can print approx 30m2 per hour @720x720 (72m2 @ 720x360!) only cost $10k (with rip & 3year warranty)
http://www.epson.com.au/Prographics/products/largeformat/DisplaySpecs.asp?id=surecolor-t5000
epson xd pigment ink is 30c per ml or $133 for equivalent 440ml, microporous (water resistant) paper ive been quoted $2 per m2 140gsm coated, dealer says 2ml ink per A2. ie approx total $1.10 per A2 or $4.40 per m2+machine (which is just ok, as 250 A2 offset costs us $240), but very importantly T series can print trimmed to bleed, as the cost to hand trim hundreds of A2s is $s prohibitive. fwiw 3rd party inks are avail about half price
I would build a custom catch tray/stacker.
But I would prefer the versatility and the lower running cost (?) you only get with solvent.
option b) rs/xc/vs ecosol with, wait for this, running A2 width stock (that is when running A2 jobs), machine printing borderless (i believe only some rips allow this) and having an easily replaceable sacrificial substance (blotting paper?) gently adhered to platen either just inside A2 paper path or very very close, to soak up overspray. Thus printing trimmed to bleed posters ready for immediate distribution. Please could anyone suggest if or how this could work?
I calculate VS/XC may only print 30 A2 per hour at 720x720...? (ie 7m2 or 75ft2)
I appreciate all comments but just because it hasn’t been done b4 (not that i know anyway) doesn’t mean it cannot be considered
we also have very limited space so if going solvent VS preferred. ive roughly converted AU$ into US$
regards
Adrian
ps epson gs6000 (mutoh) came out with a borderless kit but I dont think it was well received
we job out to offset printers several short (their min order is x250) cmyk A2 poster runs weekly, always required trimmed to bleed (borderless)
i would like to bring this inhouse to work our own (unpurchased, undecided) lfp, especially as clients often don't want 250, only 100 or 150 A2s
we also get a couple of other primarily short (1-10) run poster jobs (A1, A0) & the odd sticker etc which we also job out & could bring in house & build upon (we run km6500 and provide design and print services)
some posters are displayed on small billboard hoardings for up to a couple of weeks, they are glued up with wallpaper paste & brooms, but probably most are displayed internally. i havent tested but was advised these should be ok (printed on epson aqueous ink wouldn’t run because microporous paper would trap ink)
I see my options as a) aqueous pigment ink epson T7000, 44", I believe can print approx 30m2 per hour @720x720 (72m2 @ 720x360!) only cost $10k (with rip & 3year warranty)
http://www.epson.com.au/Prographics/products/largeformat/DisplaySpecs.asp?id=surecolor-t5000
epson xd pigment ink is 30c per ml or $133 for equivalent 440ml, microporous (water resistant) paper ive been quoted $2 per m2 140gsm coated, dealer says 2ml ink per A2. ie approx total $1.10 per A2 or $4.40 per m2+machine (which is just ok, as 250 A2 offset costs us $240), but very importantly T series can print trimmed to bleed, as the cost to hand trim hundreds of A2s is $s prohibitive. fwiw 3rd party inks are avail about half price
I would build a custom catch tray/stacker.
But I would prefer the versatility and the lower running cost (?) you only get with solvent.
option b) rs/xc/vs ecosol with, wait for this, running A2 width stock (that is when running A2 jobs), machine printing borderless (i believe only some rips allow this) and having an easily replaceable sacrificial substance (blotting paper?) gently adhered to platen either just inside A2 paper path or very very close, to soak up overspray. Thus printing trimmed to bleed posters ready for immediate distribution. Please could anyone suggest if or how this could work?
I calculate VS/XC may only print 30 A2 per hour at 720x720...? (ie 7m2 or 75ft2)
I appreciate all comments but just because it hasn’t been done b4 (not that i know anyway) doesn’t mean it cannot be considered
we also have very limited space so if going solvent VS preferred. ive roughly converted AU$ into US$
regards
Adrian
ps epson gs6000 (mutoh) came out with a borderless kit but I dont think it was well received
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hi, primarily because clients request qtys under 250. But yes, looking at my own numbers it would'nt make sense (to do inhouse) unless the client required 150 A2s or less. Bringing short run A2 inhouse (say under 150) it justifies the outlay immediately.
regards
Adrian
mark in tx
New Member
If your outsource requires a minimum run, then why don't you?
Going to the expense of gaining the equipment, maintaining the equipment, and operating the equipment only for the purpose of making smaller runs, and smaller profits doesn't add up in my mind.
Going to the expense of gaining the equipment, maintaining the equipment, and operating the equipment only for the purpose of making smaller runs, and smaller profits doesn't add up in my mind.
hi, we sell the 250A2s for $400, so our margin is $160. If we printed 150 in house we would sell for $330, if I can get consumable costs down below $1.10 per A2 it becomes viable, I know there is not much in it, however, in the long term, having the skillset, the equipment & the reputation (of lfp) inhouse will assist growth.
But what I am really interested to know is what more experienced owners & operators think of having a quickly & cheaply replaceable absorbent sacrificial medium (blotting paper?) on the platen at the outer edges of the paper path. Could this work and allow borderless printing on a solvent lfp?
Appreciate all input
cheers
Adrian
But what I am really interested to know is what more experienced owners & operators think of having a quickly & cheaply replaceable absorbent sacrificial medium (blotting paper?) on the platen at the outer edges of the paper path. Could this work and allow borderless printing on a solvent lfp?
Appreciate all input
cheers
Adrian
KevSign
New Member
I was work for offset printing as Pre-press (graphic) for 20 yrs. (I am own wide format shop now).
If offset require a lot invest money and other skill too, here are equipment require:
1- Mac and pc system loaded adobe
2- Rip software and hard ware like Prinergy (kodak), or other a least $50,000 more if buy old
3- Plate setter (direct to plate for press) - used $30,000
4- Plate processor (need chemical cleaner the plate) $15,000 or some time you buy a lot your vendor donate you one.
5- Offset press size 22"x28" used Komori from $75,000-$500,000 (need press man run pay $25/hr)
6- Paper cutter 30" - $10,000 or more
7- pallet jack bigger place
Digital press better for short run but wait for 44" or bigger.
If offset require a lot invest money and other skill too, here are equipment require:
1- Mac and pc system loaded adobe
2- Rip software and hard ware like Prinergy (kodak), or other a least $50,000 more if buy old
3- Plate setter (direct to plate for press) - used $30,000
4- Plate processor (need chemical cleaner the plate) $15,000 or some time you buy a lot your vendor donate you one.
5- Offset press size 22"x28" used Komori from $75,000-$500,000 (need press man run pay $25/hr)
6- Paper cutter 30" - $10,000 or more
7- pallet jack bigger place
Digital press better for short run but wait for 44" or bigger.
slowly getting closer
Thanks for all the valuable input, esp Pat White re numbers, + tac & solvent media. B4 reading Pats post have already lined up demo with Mutoh as they have come on board (ie warranty - tho not in writing yet..) re borderless. Additionally have found source for mutoh ink (UMS $150per1000ml), but yes, it wont work if prints offset or drying takes more than overnight or there is more than a couple of mm skewing, or I can't get a rip to trim to bleed leading & trailing edges (apparently this is more problematic than 1st thought), or decent media costs more than $2.50m2
Several factors have me leaning towards aqueous. (inc lower capital outlay ie $12k inc efi xf, small footprint of 44" printer is attractive, epson reseller supplies 3rd party ink @ $120/1l, the machine is designed to produce borderless/trimmed to bleed prints, aqueous is generally faster, most of the prints go in cafes, theatres etc or glued on hoardings for a few weeks & altho I have to test the prints in the real world the reseller says should be good... essentially this is what xerox & xante memjet or kip printers do, but with flat sheets & an extra zero on the rhs of $ & lhs of .00
hp & canon have come into the ring vs epson tseries, should be good to watch
i realise the numbers may seem absurb to some, but now Ive gotten media & ink to the bone, the upside is broad & the downside minimal
Thanks for all the valuable input, esp Pat White re numbers, + tac & solvent media. B4 reading Pats post have already lined up demo with Mutoh as they have come on board (ie warranty - tho not in writing yet..) re borderless. Additionally have found source for mutoh ink (UMS $150per1000ml), but yes, it wont work if prints offset or drying takes more than overnight or there is more than a couple of mm skewing, or I can't get a rip to trim to bleed leading & trailing edges (apparently this is more problematic than 1st thought), or decent media costs more than $2.50m2
Several factors have me leaning towards aqueous. (inc lower capital outlay ie $12k inc efi xf, small footprint of 44" printer is attractive, epson reseller supplies 3rd party ink @ $120/1l, the machine is designed to produce borderless/trimmed to bleed prints, aqueous is generally faster, most of the prints go in cafes, theatres etc or glued on hoardings for a few weeks & altho I have to test the prints in the real world the reseller says should be good... essentially this is what xerox & xante memjet or kip printers do, but with flat sheets & an extra zero on the rhs of $ & lhs of .00
hp & canon have come into the ring vs epson tseries, should be good to watch
i realise the numbers may seem absurb to some, but now Ive gotten media & ink to the bone, the upside is broad & the downside minimal
I might be wrong but didn't OCE recently launch a toner based large format printer for this application? E.g. Posters and other stuff printed on paper. Fast, cheap and immidiately dry. Might be worth looking into. I wouldn't try a solvent machine since the poster paper takes forever to dry as already mentioned.
EDIT: It was the KIP C7800 I had in mind, 3500 sqft per hour. If the quality is good enough for your application it could be an alternative?
EDIT: It was the KIP C7800 I had in mind, 3500 sqft per hour. If the quality is good enough for your application it could be an alternative?
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Our shop
I have a shop that does both digital small format printing as well as large format aqueous and Eco solvent printing.
i have a xerox 560 production color printer, canon clc1180 color printer, canon image runner 550 and 8500 b&w printers (in my book copy machines on steroids with finishers), epson 7600 and 9800 large format aqueous printers and a mutoh vj1304 Eco solvent printer.
it is quite a variety of machines but they give us the ability to do just about anything that comes through the door.
it is a money making operation. Having the ability to do everything from business cards to large banners to vehicals really works for me.
To say it will work for everyone ...
i find several of the local shops sub jobs to us and it works very well.
Will it work for other shops? It is definitely an interesting mix of stuff. But I find once a customer...always a customer. Sometimes I can hardly keep up.
Bob Cap
Gilbert, MN
I have a shop that does both digital small format printing as well as large format aqueous and Eco solvent printing.
i have a xerox 560 production color printer, canon clc1180 color printer, canon image runner 550 and 8500 b&w printers (in my book copy machines on steroids with finishers), epson 7600 and 9800 large format aqueous printers and a mutoh vj1304 Eco solvent printer.
it is quite a variety of machines but they give us the ability to do just about anything that comes through the door.
it is a money making operation. Having the ability to do everything from business cards to large banners to vehicals really works for me.
To say it will work for everyone ...
i find several of the local shops sub jobs to us and it works very well.
Will it work for other shops? It is definitely an interesting mix of stuff. But I find once a customer...always a customer. Sometimes I can hardly keep up.
Bob Cap
Gilbert, MN
Vinylman
New Member
I have been fascinated with this technology, and you might find it right for your application.
I do not know how much the machines cost, but it would put you in a wonderful position if it will fulfill your current niche'. And would allow you to become a wholesaler to other shops for the short run poster business.
http://www.memjet.com/products/wide-format
I do not know how much the machines cost, but it would put you in a wonderful position if it will fulfill your current niche'. And would allow you to become a wholesaler to other shops for the short run poster business.
http://www.memjet.com/products/wide-format
Vinylman
New Member
player: " How Much?"
Remember THIS???
Originally Posted by Vinylman
IF you can't use the search feature here on signs 101, you probably won't be able to follow the detailed instructions for correctly restoring a clogged head.
Hmmmm
Quote from player: "I don't like to read this response to a question. If they are so easy find why not just link to the threads instead of a backhander?"
Just pullin' your chain:ROFLMAO:
WOW just made my 1300th POST.
Remember THIS???
IF you can't use the search feature here on signs 101, you probably won't be able to follow the detailed instructions for correctly restoring a clogged head.
Hmmmm
Quote from player: "I don't like to read this response to a question. If they are so easy find why not just link to the threads instead of a backhander?"
Just pullin' your chain:ROFLMAO:
WOW just made my 1300th POST.
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xerox c842 memjet printer
http://www.irga.com/memjet:-what-does-it-mean-for-reprographics?/
dye ink & price current limitations (for me), ink is nt really cheap @ 16c/ftsq
not sure solvent will ever be possible (drying time), maybe uv or latex, but that seems year(s) away
ProPrint attended the launch event for the (xerox memjet) DocuWide C842, which was held yesterday at the Fuji Xerox Australia Epicentre in Sydney.
Fuji Xerox said the au$156,000 machine is "the fastest wide-format device currently available in the market". It can reach speeds of 320sqm per hour and has 1,067mm wide print capabilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLLP9oQTQg
Waylaid but the epson t7000+3rd party ink appears our probable outcome.
http://www.irga.com/memjet:-what-does-it-mean-for-reprographics?/
dye ink & price current limitations (for me), ink is nt really cheap @ 16c/ftsq
not sure solvent will ever be possible (drying time), maybe uv or latex, but that seems year(s) away
ProPrint attended the launch event for the (xerox memjet) DocuWide C842, which was held yesterday at the Fuji Xerox Australia Epicentre in Sydney.
Fuji Xerox said the au$156,000 machine is "the fastest wide-format device currently available in the market". It can reach speeds of 320sqm per hour and has 1,067mm wide print capabilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLLP9oQTQg
Waylaid but the epson t7000+3rd party ink appears our probable outcome.