Need Help BUBBLES! Need clear answers on vinyl application

[Nismoasfuh]

Hello all, so I'm getting alot of small bubbles when installing vinyl. I'm using oracal 651 and when doing a simple install on a truck I noticed a bunch of small bubbles. I made sure the truck door was clean so I doubt if any of the bubbles were particles. I could pop them but there was so many I was embarrassed to give the customer the job. After doing some research I would like some clear answers to a couple questions.

First off, wet or dry application? For as long as I can remember it makes sense to do a wet application when installing vinyl because it would take out any lingering dirt particles trapped underneath. The only down side to using rapid tac during an install was having to wait say, 5-10 minutes for it to dry. However, in a couple threads most people were mentioning that they never use the wet method as they never saw the point. They all praised the dry method. I'm assuming that they are using cast vinyl maybe? The 651 I use is labeled as an "intermediate calendar"

Next, felt or no felt squeegee? I use the avery blue squeegee, when applying vinyl I should be using the hard (non felt) side correct? When would the felt side be used then?

How many of you guys use 651 for small car installs? Or is it a norm to strictly be using cast vinyl for any outdoor vehicle no matter how big/small the job is?

If anyone has any other recommendations please feel free to share them! Thank you!

 

[Modern Ink Signs]

1. Use a better vinyl. CAST. 751 if you wish to use the Oracal product. Look into vinyl like 3M 180mC. Use the technology that is available to you!

2. Dry Dry Dry! If you really look the manufacturers do not recommended wet applications

3. Make sure your squeege is sharp. You can sharpen by rubbing against the ridge of another squeege.

4. Make sure you are using the proper squeege. For cut vinyl I like the 3M Gold squeege. They last a long time.

Since I don’t know your skill level, practice practice practice.

 

[ikarasu]

If you can pop the bubbles... its air, not dirt.

as mentioned... practice. You should be able to easily put down some vinyl without bubbles when it's cut/small pieces.

You can wet apply providing it's not bubble free vinyl. You shouldn't need to... but it's not a problem so long as it's not air egress, which 651 is not.

depending on how big the vinyl is, if it's letters / stuff with lots of grooves, you can use your thumb to lay the vinyl in, and you'll get less bubbles than a squeegee.

No felt means less chance of bubbles since it's harder - Providing you have protection ontop of the vinyl, such as laminate and or pre-mask.. you're fine with no buffer.

small decal or not... the choice between calandered / cast depends on longevity, and other things such as curves. Cast isnt much more expensive than calandered, so we try to use it whenever we can. But using cast wont fix your bubble issues, using an air egress vinyl will providing it's air trapped under, but you should learn the skills required to install without air egress, as it's not always available.

 

[ams]

First of all, Oracal 651 is an amazing product. Also the 3M Gold Squeegee is a great product, but I prefer the Oracal Gray Squeegee myself.

#1. DO NOT WET APPLY, that is for beginners and not recommended for many vinyls.

#2. You only use a felt squeegee on printed/laminated surfaces. Your 651 should be transfer taped, so you don't use felt.

#3. 651 should never be used on a curved surface. Rivets will be your enemy and any stretching. Avoid those and keep it flat.

#4. When laying down the vinyl, squeegee HARD. This will remove the uneven pressure and ensure the vinyl is laid down smooth. You don't need to use your entire strength and force it down. But use moderately harder pressure. Everyone gets bubbles from time to time, use a Pin Popper to pop them. Also look into using a Rapid Air vinyl (Air Egress) you can push out bubbles with your finger.

 

[gabagoo]

I do just about everything dry, unless it is a second colour overlay and fairly large. I have experienced using 3M cast that there are times when I get some very small bubbles, even after doing what I felt was a great application. What I found out was as much as I wanted to rip it all off and start again, I just left it and the next day when I came in and examined the graphics, these small bubbles were all gone... I sometimes think that in hot humid weather the glue can sort of get coagulated and then over a time period it smooths out. 3M 7725 is notorious for the small bubbles and I have a feeling it has something to do with the synthetic liner. You can get real small bubbles all along the edges of even very small graphics...again they dissapear over time.

 

[visual800]

OP, how are you installing? what is your method of laying vinyl?

 

[Nismoasfuh]

OP, how are you installing? what is your method of laying vinyl?

I exclusively use the hinge method. Its very straight forward for me and helps a lot with alignment which in turn helps with my OCD haha.

Everyone else: thank you so much for the clear answers and suggestions, truly appreciated!

 

[jimbug72]

It's been my experience that there mainly are 3 things that cause bubbles.

#1 (and probably the most common for tiny bubbles for us) Improperly cleaned surface. Just because you wiped the surface and there's no visible grit/debris on the surface doesn't mean it's clean/degreased. There can be residue (even from your hands) that you can't see but it's there. When you pull off your premask when it's not properly cleaned the vinyl will lift wherever there is contaminate on the substrate surface causing little bubbles.

#2 dull/nicked squeegees. Those little nicks will create "tunnels" in your pressure and leave little bubbles behind.

#3 sloppy squeegee technique. If your strokes aren't uniform and you leave gaps in your strokes you will trap air pockets. This generally leaves larger air pockets and not the all over tiny bubbles like you described.

Make sure you use non-felt squeegees that are nice and sharp and your surface is thoroughly cleaned and degreased with careful and deliberate even pressured strokes and those embarrassing moments should be a thing of the past.

 

[unclebun]

You will get more small air bubbles if it's hot and the metal is hot when you apply the vinyl. Obviously, it is technique dependent, as everyone has stated. But small bubbles will go away on their own in time.

 

[Sandman]

First of all, Oracal 651 is an amazing product. Also the 3M Gold Squeegee is a great product, but I prefer the Oracal Gray Squeegee myself.

#1. DO NOT WET APPLY, that is for beginners and not recommended for many vinyls.

Bull... Wet application with Rapid Tac is a godsend when applying large graphics by yourself, when needing to register a second color, and applying vinyl in cold weather. Yes most vinyl manufacturers recommend NOT using wet application. Why would they? Many sign people try to save a few pennies by making their own with water, alcohol, and dish soap (bad idea) so vinyl manufacturers would never say it's okay when they have no idea what you're using to apply it wet, and they aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

I suspect it's your application method or tools. As others have said, 3M gold squeegee should be your tool of choice. You should use just slightly firm strokes, pulling the squeegee toward you at about a 30° to 45° angle and over lap your strokes. I have found it is easier to create bubbles when using too much initial pressure as the vinyl can be stretched too easily. I use firm pressure after it's all down. Finally, I can guarantee bubbles if there are nicks in your squeegee. As soon as the edge starts to look a little frayed, as others have said, sharpen the edge against another squeegee. That's what those ridges on the gold squeegee are for. Lastly, yes practice. You'll get better at it the more you do it. Oh, another trick if you're laying it by yourself is to top hinge, then cut up to the hinge between every few letters so you're applying a small group at a time.

 

[decalman]

THE BUBBLES GO AWAY.

651 is porus. It's got little air release holes. When the sun hits it, it speeds up the process.
I use lots of Oracle 651. Great economy film.
Totally normal to get bubles.
Depending on the temperature determine how long it takes to go away.
I guarantee to my customers, money back, if the bubbles don't go away by themselves..... except a bubble bigger than a pencil eraser. Then simply pop the thing. Never had to give a refund.

Oracle ,651 is in my opinion the best calendered film.
Show me one thats equal to it ?

I'm amazed that nobody else answered the bubble question correctly..

 

[AKwrapguy]

Hello all, so I'm getting alot of small bubbles when installing vinyl. I'm using oracal 651 and when doing a simple install on a truck I noticed a bunch of small bubbles. I made sure the truck door was clean so I doubt if any of the bubbles were particles. I could pop them but there was so many I was embarrassed to give the customer the job. After doing some research I would like some clear answers to a couple questions.

First off, wet or dry application? For as long as I can remember it makes sense to do a wet application when installing vinyl because it would take out any lingering dirt particles trapped underneath. The only down side to using rapid tac during an install was having to wait say, 5-10 minutes for it to dry. However, in a couple threads most people were mentioning that they never use the wet method as they never saw the point. They all praised the dry method. I'm assuming that they are using cast vinyl maybe? The 651 I use is labeled as an "intermediate calendar"

Next, felt or no felt squeegee? I use the avery blue squeegee, when applying vinyl I should be using the hard (non felt) side correct? When would the felt side be used then?

How many of you guys use 651 for small car installs? Or is it a norm to strictly be using cast vinyl for any outdoor vehicle no matter how big/small the job is?

If anyone has any other recommendations please feel free to share them! Thank you!

How did you prep the vehicle? This might be the most important question.

Are the bubbles air or is tar/dirt embedded into the paint?

 

[TimToad]

When doing a hinge method application on pre-taped vinyl, I try to do a little rolling method of squeegeeing and often use a wrap glove or my thumb instead of a squeegee. That curved shape of my thumb helps with the "rolling" action.

I see no harm or detriment in using a product like RapidTac that has been time tested on the market for decades. JBurton makes an outstanding point about the fine mist sprayers making a big difference. Standard spray bottles don't apply an even or bubble free enough coating of liquid.

 

[Sign Works]

Vehicles - Cast only
Application - Primarily dry, wet when necessary
Bubbles / Wrinkles - Technique, technique & technique

 

[ikarasu]

Bull... Wet application with Rapid Tac is a godsend when applying large graphics by yourself, when needing to register a second color, and applying vinyl in cold weather. Yes most vinyl manufacturers recommend NOT using wet application. Why would they? Many sign people try to save a few pennies by making their own with water, alcohol, and dish soap (bad idea) so vinyl manufacturers would never say it's okay when they have no idea what you're using to apply it wet, and they aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

I suspect it's your application method or tools. As others have said, 3M gold squeegee should be your tool of choice. You should use just slightly firm strokes, pulling the squeegee toward you at about a 30° to 45° angle and over lap your strokes. I have found it is easier to create bubbles when using too much initial pressure as the vinyl can be stretched too easily. I use firm pressure after it's all down. Finally, I can guarantee bubbles if there are nicks in your squeegee. As soon as the edge starts to look a little frayed, as others have said, sharpen the edge against another squeegee. That's what those ridges on the gold squeegee are for. Lastly, yes practice. You'll get better at it the more you do it. Oh, another trick if you're laying it by yourself is to top hinge, then cut up to the hinge between every few letters so you're applying a small group at a time.

Most vinyls that say do not wet apply are control tac, or air egress. The reason is the water gets trapped in the air egress and causes issues.

3M For instance allows wet apply on any vinyl that is not control tac, but if you do it to control tac... the warranty is immediately gone. So while most vinyls are ok to be wet applied... Anything with air egress generally is not

 

[bob]

Bubbles, as well as their vicious cousins, wrinkles, are almost always squeegee technique. When you squeegee ALWAYS overlap your strokes. Start the stoke with the squeegee completely on the last stroke and then some.

Let the squeegee put the vinyl on the substrate, having the vinyl in contact with the substrate and then trying to squeegee it down is a sure fire recipe for bubbles and wrinkles.

Assuming a down stroke, start your stroke with the squeegee completely on the last stroke and don't engage the un-sqeegeed vinyl until the squeegee is at least a 1/4" or more down from the top of the mask and at an angle such that at the end of the stroke only about half the squeegee is pushing down vinyl. Reverse things as necessary if you're on an up stroke. The same applies if you're using a right or left hinge. Start with the squeegee completely on the substrate and bring it on to the hinged edge a bit below where the hinge tape meetys the app tape. This is one of those things that's a lot easier to demonstrate than it is to describe.

If you do end up with a bubble or two, be of good cheer, vinyl is gas permeable and the smaller bubbles will eventually go away on their own. Larger editions you should pop.

 

[ams]

Bull... Wet application with Rapid Tac is a godsend when applying large graphics by yourself, when needing to register a second color, and applying vinyl in cold weather. Yes most vinyl manufacturers recommend NOT using wet application. Why would they? Many sign people try to save a few pennies by making their own with water, alcohol, and dish soap (bad idea) so vinyl manufacturers would never say it's okay when they have no idea what you're using to apply it wet, and they aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

I suspect it's your application method or tools. As others have said, 3M gold squeegee should be your tool of choice. You should use just slightly firm strokes, pulling the squeegee toward you at about a 30° to 45° angle and over lap your strokes. I have found it is easier to create bubbles when using too much initial pressure as the vinyl can be stretched too easily. I use firm pressure after it's all down. Finally, I can guarantee bubbles if there are nicks in your squeegee. As soon as the edge starts to look a little frayed, as others have said, sharpen the edge against another squeegee. That's what those ridges on the gold squeegee are for. Lastly, yes practice. You'll get better at it the more you do it. Oh, another trick if you're laying it by yourself is to top hinge, then cut up to the hinge between every few letters so you're applying a small group at a time.

Stop giving bad advice. Wet apply is only meant for certain applications. Just because you prefer it, doesn't mean it's right. Also applying it in cold weather is insane. Don't lead innocent people to the grave with your advice.

 

[Billct2]

What JBurton said. I use just the "nose" of the squeegee, not the whole flat edge. Use hard firm pressure and don't rush it till you develop a good technique.

 

[Gino]

Stop giving bad advice. Wet apply is only meant for certain applications. Just because you prefer it, doesn't mean it's right. Also applying it in cold weather is insane. Don't lead innocent people to the grave with your advice.

That wasn't bad advice, not at all. The most significant thing of this whole thread is..... technique and practice.

 

[letterman7]

That wasn't bad advice, not at all. The most significant thing of this whole thread is..... technique and practice.

Bingo. While I try to do most everything dry, there are times that it has to be wet - layering, for example, or in the weather we've been having here where it's hot and humid and you're working outside. I have yet to have a failure with a wet install, even after 20+ years doing this... and even now, I still get bubbles from time to time. No rhyme or reason, they'll just happen.