Need Help BUBBLES! Need clear answers on vinyl application

[ikarasu]

While I don't think telling someone to set apply is bad advice, I do think telling them you can wet apply every single vinyl, and the manufacturer's just don't want to say wet apply.is fine because they don't sell their own rapid tac, is bad advice.

You don't always have to follow manufacturers advice... But doing a wet apply on air egress vinyl traps the water in the little air egress pockets and can cause a ton of issues.

We do a lot of clear flop prints backed with white vinyl on acyrlic. Weve done hundreds of them, usually we wet apply them on our rollover table as it gives the best results. We switched to a clear air egress vinyl... Our mounter kept wet applying, and every single one of them failed. At first we thought that was the vinyl.. but when we stopped wet applying, not a single fail.

There is a place for wet applying... But there are some.vinyls you do not want to do it with. Good news is it's the vinyls even a rookie shouldn't need to wet apply though .

 

[ams]

Bingo. While I try to do most everything dry, there are times that it has to be wet - layering, for example, or in the weather we've been having here where it's hot and humid and you're working outside. I have yet to have a failure with a wet install, even after 20+ years doing this... and even now, I still get bubbles from time to time. No rhyme or reason, they'll just happen.

Layering is a great reason to wet apply. It can be done dry, but it's a one shot, one chance deal

 

[letterman7]

While I don't think telling someone to set apply is bad advice, I do think telling them you can wet apply every single vinyl, and the manufacturer's just don't want to say wet apply.is fine because they don't sell their own rapid tac, is bad advice.

You don't always have to follow manufacturers advice... But doing a wet apply on air egress vinyl traps the water in the little air egress pockets and can cause a ton of issues.

We do a lot of clear flop prints backed with white vinyl on acyrlic. Weve done hundreds of them, usually we wet apply them on our rollover table as it gives the best results. We switched to a clear air egress vinyl... Our mounter kept wet applying, and every single one of them failed. At first we thought that was the vinyl.. but when we stopped wet applying, not a single fail.

There is a place for wet applying... But there are some.vinyls you do not want to do it with. Good news is it's the vinyls even a rookie shouldn't need to wet apply though .

Right. Yes, air egress is certainly not a vinyl for wet application. But for 99% of the other non-air egress premium vinyls, there should be no problems... if using a quality liquid, and not a home-made brew.

Layering is a great reason to wet apply. It can be done dry, but it's a one shot, one chance deal

Yep. Even with registration marks it can be tricky!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Keep wet apply in your back pocket for tricky situations...not everyday vinyl. I used to ONLY do wet on etched glass, but I ran into some trouble applying low-tac fully saturated and non-laminated vinyl on glass where the sun was beating down and the wet really helped.

 

[Gary Wiant]

651 is garbage as well as most Orical, unless something has changed even the 751 is a "calendered high performace" which is an oxymoron, calendered will never be high performance and Cast will never be high performance. Calendered should never be used on vehicles unless it is for a demo derby or dirt track race car. When it fails & it will not only will your customer have a bad looking vehicle you'll get a bad name that your work doesn't last.

I was at my first sign seminar back in 1995 back before air egress & the speaker was asked "wet r dry" application and he said if your getting in the industry learn to do it the right way DRY! No matter what you are using for application fluid EVERYTHING leave residue after evaporating.

I don't understand why people try to get away with intermediate vinyls when the job requires a cast film. The cost of materials mean absolutely nothing to the sign person, cost of material get charged to the customer & if you can't afford to stock Cast vinyl your really cannot afford to be in business.

My shop used only 3M, it's the best vinyl on the market hands down

Gary

 

[ikarasu]

Calandered has its uses.

There are two types - mono and poly. Mono will shrink a lot and is generally garbage .Poly is "high performance".

Takes 3m ij40 for example .It's a calandered print film that lasts 7 years with minimal shrinking .it's a great product, and we've never had an issue with it lasting many years.

Avery high performance calandered is great, so is 3ms .We've never used oracal, so I can't vouch for it.

We are also a 3M certified shop, and it's what we use 99% of the time. I will say for wraps, i hate the stuff though. I wouldn't call it the best... It excells in a lot of areas, but falls short in many also.

If you do wraps, give vivivd a try... Or even Avery, you'll notice how much easier and better it looks than 3M. For printed material, I'd say 3M is the best though.

 

[ams]

651 is garbage as well as most Orical, unless something has changed even the 751 is a "calendered high performace" which is an oxymoron, calendered will never be high performance and Cast will never be high performance. Calendered should never be used on vehicles unless it is for a demo derby or dirt track race car. When it fails & it will not only will your customer have a bad looking vehicle you'll get a bad name that your work doesn't last.

I was at my first sign seminar back in 1995 back before air egress & the speaker was asked "wet r dry" application and he said if your getting in the industry learn to do it the right way DRY! No matter what you are using for application fluid EVERYTHING leave residue after evaporating.

I don't understand why people try to get away with intermediate vinyls when the job requires a cast film. The cost of materials mean absolutely nothing to the sign person, cost of material get charged to the customer & if you can't afford to stock Cast vinyl your really cannot afford to be in business.

My shop used only 3M, it's the best vinyl on the market hands down

Gary

Stop knocking 651, if you did your research, you would learn that 651 is one of the best vinyls in it's class. I've talked to several sales reps that don't sell Oracal and they agree that 651 is a superior vinyl. It's the exact vinyl that pushed Oracal to become one of the industry leaders.

Now in my experience 751 is garbage, I will agree to that, but I've used 651 for 11 years now without a single issue. So get your facts straight.

 

[Gary Wiant]

651 is a lower level vinyl than 751 & saying 651 is superior its class is like saying it's the best of the worst vinyl. You saying I need to get my facts straight is laughable. You may not know me but I'm sure a lot on here do, you need to do some research on how vinyls are manufactured.

Calendared vinyls are by no means meant to be used as long term solutions. It will always return to its original form, a ball. 651 is not superior to any cast vinyl, it may be superior to other garbage but no calendared vinyl should be used on vehicles. Charge more so you can use cast.
Gary

 

[ams]

651 is a lower level vinyl than 751 & saying 651 is superior its class is like saying it's the best of the worst vinyl. You saying I need to get my facts straight is laughable. You may not know me but I'm sure a lot on here do, you need to do some research on how vinyls are manufactured.

Calendared vinyls are by no means meant to be used as long term solutions. It will always return to its original form, a ball. 651 is not superior to any cast vinyl, it may be superior to other garbage but no calendared vinyl should be used on vehicles. Charge more so you can use cast.
Gary

Very unintelligent reply. You really think I am saying 651 is a cast vinyl? or superior to cast? You are more stupid than you seemed.
Half the people on this forum know that calendared vinyl shouldn't be used for long term. So your posts are pointless.

Hopefully my honest information will help someone and that they don't fall victim to your information.

 

[equippaint]

651 is a lower level vinyl than 751 & saying 651 is superior its class is like saying it's the best of the worst vinyl. You saying I need to get my facts straight is laughable. You may not know me but I'm sure a lot on here do, you need to do some research on how vinyls are manufactured.

Calendared vinyls are by no means meant to be used as long term solutions. It will always return to its original form, a ball. 651 is not superior to any cast vinyl, it may be superior to other garbage but no calendared vinyl should be used on vehicles. Charge more so you can use cast.
Gary

Calandared is perfectly fine on flat surfaces, vehicles included.
If you disagree, why dont you show some actual examples as to why 651 is not a suitable material? Where are the facts behind your dug in position? Even oracal will confirm this. It isnt 1988 anymore, believe it or not, plastics have progressed.
I see cast shrink, crack and tent too so its far from some miracle product.

 

[Gary Wiant]

Ams- you said it is one of the best vinyls in its class (intermediate) but their 751(cast) is garbage when in fact the 751 uses the same adhesive as their 651 but has a higher quality vinyl its self yet you say its garbage so apparently you're either stupid or don't know what your talking about ( I'm betting on the 2nd). The problem isn't the half the people that know intermediate shouldn't be used for long term, it's the half that don't know it. + I consider vehicle lettering as long term.
This is a quote from a google search
"Oracal 751 & 951 Info - Specialty Cricut and Silhouette Vinyl. Oracal 751 and 951 are premium cast vinyls. They are for the ultimate in outdoor durability and conformability. They use the same solvent based permanent adhesive as Oracal 651 but have a higher overall quality in the vinyl film itself"

I haven't been on this forum much the last 10 years or so, and apparently the pride in the craft has fallen off greatly. I would never use intermediate on outdoor signs or vehicles.

We are known for our quality & not cutting corners. We don't get every job but we quote, and we don't want the people looking for the cheapest job. We are busy enough to have between 3 & 4 week back log. I absolutely love shops that use Intermediate vinyl on vehicles because I know I'll be getting that customer sooner than later.

Enjoy your delusion I'M DONE ON THIS THREAD, you can get back to ruining businesses dumb enough to listen to you. Hopefully users on here are smart enough to do their own research & testing.

 

[equippaint]

Ams- you said it is one of the best vinyls in its class (intermediate) but their 751(cast) is garbage when in fact the 751 uses the same adhesive as their 651 but has a higher quality vinyl its self yet you say its garbage so apparently your either stupid or don't know what your talking about ( I'm betting on the 2nd). The problem isn't the half the people that know intermediate shouldn't be used for long term, it's the half that don't know it. + I consider vehicle lettering as long term.
This is a quote from a google search
"Oracal 751 & 951 Info - Specialty Cricut and Silhouette Vinyl. Oracal 751 and 951 are premium cast vinyls. They are for the ultimate in outdoor durability and conformability. They use the same solvent based permanent adhesive as Oracal 651 but have a higher overall quality in the vinyl film itself"

I haven't been on this forum much the last 10 years or so, and apparently the pride in the craft has fallen off greatly. I would never use intermediate on outdoor signs or vehicles.

We are known for our quality & not cutting corners. We don't get every job but we quote, and we don't want the people looking for the cheapest job. We are busy enough to have between 3 & 4 week back log. I absolutely love shops that use Intermediate vinyl on vehicles because I know I'll be getting that customer sooner than later.

Enjoy your delusion I'M DONE ON THIS THREAD, you can get back to ruining businesses dumb enough to listen to you. Hopefully users on here are smart enough to do their own research & testing.

When insulting people and calling them stupid, I would highly recommend using the correct form of "your", in this instance its you're. It sort of erodes your argument and puts you in the same category.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Your taking HD's job....

 

[ikarasu]

It's like lumping all pickup trucks together, and all cars together.

I've had some Cast material that peels and cracks easily... and I've had some calendared thats been up 10+ years that looks great.

Not every 3M Product is great, and not Every Oracal product sucks. We have a client who only uses oracal 631 for her decals... So we bring in a roll to cut stuff for her. We've cut thousands of Decals on it... I hate the stuff because it feels so.. weird, but she's never complained about it failing early. I've heard nothing but good things about 651, but I havent been able to test it... We usually stick to 3M for Cast, and Avery for HP Calandered. We do use a Orajet product for our wooden real estate signs, We havent been able to find anything else with as strong adhesive as it.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Most bubbles smaller than about 1/16" are the result of improper surface preparation. That can range from basic cleaning (especially vehicles, wax removal is essential, modern hydro-phobic coatings need to be softened with the proper preparation solvent) to the freshness of the paint and temperature differences between the vinyl and the application surface. Wet or dry makes little difference (use whatever method works best). 651 is really easy to work with for its intended applications (no compound contours). I have applied 651 on flat polycarbonate using the wet method which appeared absolutely smooth when done, but had millions of micro-bubbles the next day (they eventually settled down after the sign was installed).

I tend to use cast vinyl for most vehicles. All calendared vinyl will eventually start coming up at the edges as its elasticity is compromised by the calendaring process, and it will eventually fail as the vehicle surface expands and contracts due to temperature changes.

Bigger bubbles are generally due to application technique. Using the wet method can help with this. Rapid-Tac works well, and they have a cold weather version that comes in handy. You can make your own serviceable application fluid by putting a few drops of dish washing detergent in a spray bottle filled with warm water (the detergent acts as a surfactant and reduces the surface tension of the water). I don't recommend adding alcohol, but isopropyl alcohol is a good cleaner on some surfaces. I add a few drops of vanilla extract to my solution so that I can tell what it is.

 

[Sandman]

My advice was spot on. The only thing I left out was NOT applying wet when using air egress vinyl. I shouldn't have assumed that professionals would know that. I can't remember who claimed that I prefer wet application, but you couldn't be more wrong. 95% or more of what I apply is dry. But when the job calls for wet, I do it. I had to apply vinyl to the outside of a glass door at below 30°. It stayed on just fine for years until it had to be removed.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

I add a few drops of vanilla extract to my solution so that I can tell what it is.

Why not just label it?

 

[kcollinsdesign]

The spray bottles are constantly being re-purposed. I've picked up bottles labeled "application fluid" which turned out to be window cleaner or adhesive remover. I make up the "homemade" application fluid in one gallon containers, and I can tell by the smell what it is. I have given up trying to get the crew to label stuff. Plus I like the smell of vanilla!

 

[I-try]

I never put 651 on a vehicle. 6 times out of 10, a customer will also bring a vehicle to me when they want it removed prior to selling... Try removing 651 off of a vehicle after 3 - 5 years after being cooked by the sun... best of luck to you.

751 or 970 is the way to go... always install dry, push hard. The squeegee's I use are a bit on the expensive side, but they last forever. I use the hard side of a Geek Wrap's felt squeegee. It's made of a little harder material and you can get good pressure on it while applying your graphics (just my personal preference).