Building Sign question

[GoodPeopleFlags]

Like you said, you know electrical and aren't worried about that. Then you *should* be worried about putting up the letters correctly since you've never done it before. Why not give the job to a company with experience in doing this and in exchange, they let you come along and see how it's done? Attempting something like this without knowing how to do it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

 

[Silver Star DC]

Like you said, you know electrical and aren't worried about that. Then you *should* be worried about putting up the letters correctly since you've never done it before. Why not give the job to a company with experience in doing this and in exchange, they let you come along and see how it's done? Attempting something like this without knowing how to do it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Unfortunately I have tried to do that with some of the local companies. I've asked for advice and help in several areas from the local shops. But they seem to feel threatened and astonished that I would even ask that of them. If I were to go to one of the local shops, they would attempt to cut me completely out of the picture. As much as I would like to take your advice...I can't. I have already been down this road.

 

[Andy D]

Silver, if you get in a bind, PM me the question and I will consult our install manager for a solution, we Tennesseeians need to stick together

 

[Silver Star DC]

Silver, if you get in a bind, PM me the question and I will consult our install manager for a solution, we Tennesseeians need to stick together

Thanks Andy. I really appreciate that.

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

One important aspect getting passed up here is that fact that this is a trade, and is considered in most stated to be a "trade". That is why in most states you need a contractors license. A contractors license has nothing to do with "Unions". States set up these licenses to protect many parties. The primary, subcontractors and consumers built into that are remedies to, fast ones to recoup losses.

I'm not going to go into great detail of the why's (but it is VERY important), but I'd rather be in my crappy socialist state of California to be any one of those three parties I named than in any other, should something go wrong. I would be protected from the other parties as well as a disaster and recoup rather quickly should one falter. That won't happen where there is no contractors licensing laws.

Last I looked this Trade is still a trade and it requires you learn from someone or company by working for another and spending the required years to float on your own. This whole discussion is sort of like the Sign-A-Rama who wants to be a full service electrical sign and lighting shop. I get wanting to learn, grow and expand, but it shouldn't happen over a message board or asking a neighbor. It's one thing to ask about components, vinyl film, or what Transformer might work better than others, but for never ever installed a set of channel letters before and first time seeing a electrical wiring diagram well.....

If a local established shop was asking me such a question I would shun them too, it's kinda of like the water heater guy who wants advice on framing a house of building. It 's nice they want to learn, I respect someone who wants to learn more and the proper way but go through the right avenues of the trade. Go work for someone who perform that kinda work. You'll learn the right way, a better way rather than on the job as you go. I started out sweeping the floor and getting/handing tools to the installers, observed what the crane guys were doing.

When you learn the right way you will learn the "why", that's very important for you and for your clients. It's a vague term, the "why", but you will know why something went out, or why it failed, NOT just that it needs to be replaced, because you will be replacing it again if you won't know "why", and you'll end up costing yourself money and worse of all the consumer who put their confidence and investment in you because they believed in you.

 

[rossmosh]

Everyone's going to have different opinions on this but I see a pretty simple path to move forward.

Obviously you're not making this sign. You're going to outsource the work. Talk to that person. Pick that person's brain. Get as much information from that person. Once you do, you'll be able to figure out if this is a job you're equipped to do. The first time doing a job is always more of educational experience than a money maker. What you need is a vendor that is patient and willing to educate. I know Gemini, for example, will probably help you out quite a bit. I'm sure there are many other vendors that will happily help you with this project. In some cases, they know someone else you can call and speak with. Sometimes they even know another sign shop that would be happy to help.

 

[ams]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this is the right section for this topic. If not, I apologize.

I have a customer that is wanting a sign installed on the front of a new building. The surface they
want the sign installed on, is a curved surface. I have attached a picture of the area for the project.
They are also wanting either the letters them selves lit, or the letters backlit. If this were a flat
surface, I wouldn't have any questions. But with this surface being curved, I'm kinda scratching my
head on this one. I haven't done too many of this type of sign. So I am looking for any and all
advice on this one. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

You can do front lit or back lit. The halo only reaches maybe 2" out past the letter and the curve isn't enough to warp the effects of the LEDs.

 

[player]

I did the CSA certification for my shop in 1995. It was nice to put our own approval label on and not have wait around for special inspection. I am on my own now and I don't have the CSA designation anymore. I don't know what I did with the dielectric strength tester...

 

[player]

Sure no problem...

 

[petrosgraphics]

the first thing you need to do is find access to the backside(inside) of the wall. if it is not from a panel under the overhang, you have to look inside the building. if there are ceiling tiles near the front of the building, more than likely you will be able to gain access from above the tiles. access to the area is the 1st priority. getting there is 1/2 the battle. *i have had to walk the full length a of the attic area because there was limited access. that along has to figure into your pricing structure. after that then you can talk to customer about the type of letter he wishes to have

 

[TimToad]

I'd be curious to see how many cautiously and ethically produced signs you could have made in the time you've spent beating a dead horse with your one-sided argument.

I get plenty of work done in the course of my day, in addition to checking on the validity of claims being made here that one doesn't need an electrical or general contractor's license in TN to wire and install electrical signs, which turns out to be false. Especially in the four large cities in TN, where one of the two TN based poster appears to operate in.

So much for the dead horse beating on the subject. Before folks spout off or critique others, they might want to do even just a little research into the subject.

WestCoast SignGuy and myself seem to be the only long time signmakers on this thread who respect the process and the legal, ethical and fiduciary requirements for operating with the proper protocols, licensing, insurance, equipment, training, permitting, etc.

I can just imagine any of you defending skirting the law, calling a number you saw for a decking contractor when you actually need a roof and giving them the job to replace the roof on your shop because they told you they had done their own roof and had an interest in expanding their business to include doing roofs, but didn't have any of the required licensing, bonding, insurance or ability to pull the proper permits to do the job.

 

[Andy D]

I get plenty of work done in the course of my day, in addition to checking on the validity of claims being made here that one doesn't need an electrical or general contractor's license in TN to wire and install electrical signs, which turns out to be false. Especially in the four large cities in TN, where one of the two TN based poster appears to operate in.

Links?

 

[fixtureman]

Sorry, but I've never seen a non-illuminated 4'x8' or vinyl sign go up in flames, but I've seen plenty of examples of badly wired electric signs do so. Hell, even good jobs can go bad, or create a hazard. Even good crane operators have accidents and drop stuff.

I'd be curious to see the generational split on those who have such a cavalier approach versus a more cautious and ethical attitude on the subject.

And how many of them were wired by a license

 

[petrosgraphics]

gentlemen, over the course of my own 40 years in this business i have seen to many really bad electrical installs. when neon was the only way to have a lit channel letter you had installs that were nothing but and were fire hazards.
for service, some electricians and sign guys would not know what they were up against, not have the proper wire, connectors, etc. get it to light and walkaway. if you are going to touch it, make sure you have the proper insurances in place. stay within your comfort zone, if you feel the need when the final connections are made to the power sources have the electrician inspect the wiring (for a fee, of course) and get it done. trust me you will sleep better at night...*

 

[TimToad]

Links?

https://www.tn.gov/commerce/article/cont-license-testing

http://www.necanet.org/professional...ing-requirements/state-electrical-regulations

https://www.examprep.org/InfoDialog...e Limited License Electrician (LLE)&Course=71

http://www.nationaltrainingcenter.n...b docs/NSCA 2015 Guide to State Licensing.pdf

http://www.chattanooga.gov/city-council-files/CityCode/14 - Electricity.pdf ( See page 4 and 5 )

http://www.nashville.gov/Portals/0/SiteContent/Codes/docs/public_docs/brochure_ground_sign_legal.pdf

https://www.shelbycountytn.gov/index.aspx?NID=535

 

[TimToad]

I had assumed (you know that they say about that) that the OP was telling the truth about a license to perform the work. I don't have the time to click all the links you posted but if that is the case (that a license is indeed required) then I would have to agree that it should be performed by a properly licensed manufacturer/installer.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but didn't think it applied if a license wasn't required. If it is, and the OP doesn't have one, then he shouldn't be doing this type of work for his and his client's sake.

I think too many people assume too many things and especially that the southern states are all backwards, anti-regulations, opposed to modernity, etc.

Tennessee's regulations regarding working with electrical components and wiring are as stringent as any other state and especially so in the biggest cities.

 

[Andy D]

I was curious and wanted to make sure I had my facts correct.
I asked two guys, who both have been erecting & installing electrical signs in TN
for a combination of 35 years, and what I was told is : If you are not working under a certified electricians licence,
then you do need to get a limited electrical licence, it costs $50 and takes about 20 minutes, and it covers pretty basic
electrical knowledge. It's good for pulling electrical permits & all electrical sign installs less than $25,000 and is good for two years.

As I have previously stated several times, you do not need to be a certified electrician to do electrical sign installations in Tennessee.

https://www.tn.gov/commerce/topic/cont-limited-licensed-electricians

I think too many people assume too many things and especially that the southern states are all backwards, anti-regulations, opposed to modernity, etc.

Tennessee's regulations regarding working with electrical components and wiring are as stringent as any other state and especially so in the biggest cities.

The only assumption I read was your assumption that people that disagree with you are somehow unethical....
While I can appreciate your passion and concern about the sign trade, I don't agree with how you go about expressing it.

 

[fixtureman]

There are a lot of people that think anything goes some states like West Virginia. I had to take a contractors test and get licensed there just to install gondola and indoor signage. One installer laughed at me and asked what kind of test it was and I told him it was the same one you iook 3 times and still didn't pass