Businessing is Hard

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Where are you located Jag?

Based in Oklahoma City, home of tornadoes, a mediocre basketball team and some interstates!
As far as commissions go, I guess that might be workable. Our margins are low, so lots of room for markup. Not paying mortgage level payments each month on financed/leased equipment or anything like that.

 

[Johnny Best]

If business was easy everyone would be self employed.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

If business was easy everyone would be self employed.

I really hope you drew that, as it is amazing. And yes, businessing is hard, but I am happy I am trying; even if I do suck at it.

 

[Johnny Best]

I really hope you drew that, as it is amazing. And yes, businessing is hard, but I am happy I am trying; even if I do suck at it.

This is a good place to practice drawing on people’s input. I am AI

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

This is a good place to practice drawing on people’s input. I am AI

AI is such a terrifying thing, I don't know how anyone can use Illustrator with a straight face.
Wait, wrong AI.
It even has the right number of hands, astounding!

 

[White Haus]

And yes, businessing is hard, but I am happy I am trying; even if I do suck at it.

The first rule of fight club is, admitting that there is a fight club. Or wait... I feel like that isn't right.

I feel your pain. We're very much in a different category compared to what you guys are doing (your game sounds much funner) but some days I definitely feel like I don't know what the hell I'm doing and/or I'd rather just be tinkering with stuff. I like selling stuff, and figuring out how to make stuff, but sometimes putting all that together in a cohesive (and profitable) way sure is a challenge. Sounds like you guys have an interesting niche and if your risk is still fairly low, keep doing what you're doing and eventually it will pay off. Or you'll decide to do something else. Some days I feel like the situation we're in will either make or break the company and I'm not sure if that's a good situation to constantly live in, but it makes things exciting I guess.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

I think fun and success tend to be almost mutually exclusive, however, I am quite happy overall. Today's dumb project is designing a 2ft x 3ft flatbed with a BOM under $1800. Skipping the vacuum bed and using 6x TX800 heads means the main expense is just the control board. Wanting a flatbed printer that will pair well with a low-cost CO2 laser cutter for hobbyists and small to mid-volume printing while still being able to break the 35 square meters per hour benchmark while being super cheap to swap heads. Hobbyists, and pros can be idiots, so designing things to be cheap to crash seems essential.

 

[White Haus]

I think fun and success tend to be almost mutually exclusive, however, I am quite happy overall. Today's dumb project is designing a 2ft x 3ft flatbed with a BOM under $1800. Skipping the vacuum bed and using 6x TX800 heads means the main expense is just the control board. Wanting a flatbed printer that will pair well with a low-cost CO2 laser cutter for hobbyists and small to mid-volume printing while still being able to break the 35 square meters per hour benchmark while being super cheap to swap heads. Hobbyists, and pros can be idiots, so designing things to be cheap to crash seems essential.

That sounds like fun!! It's crazy what Mimaki etc. charges for those small flatbeds. I can see how they would be fun to have, but for that price you're half-way to a full sized flatbed.

Speaking of Co2 lasers, todays assignment for us was getting our new laser to cut out 3/8" thick acrylic w/ brushed gold polyester applied to it.
Pretty happy with the results so far. Edges could be smoother but will tinker with settings more tomorrow. Now have to test painting edges to match face film to see if we can simulate actual brushed brass letters.

Do you ever play with small CNCs? If you felt like building a mini CNC / rotary engraver for doing braille, I'd jump on that list quick. I'm definitely not paying 30-40k for a Vision or similar. Can't believe what they charge for those things either!

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Lots of CNC background, went to school for automation and controls and went off the damn deep end over the past 24 years. Wanting raised braille (additive) or recessed braille (subtractive)? Looked into using epoxies (printed) or tiny pins for making raised letters as it ends up being super easy to assemble by just tapping the pins into the milled holes. Can do everything on a $400 benchtop Chinese CNC quite easily. For volume, more automation would be key, but still not difficult. Stuff only really gets expensive when it gets large. I love that we live in an age where $3 internet capable microcontrollers are a thing.

 

[JBurton]

Now, I just need to figure out what we should focus on selling, the prints, or the printers.

So, there is probably one printer for every 10,000 folks in my town. Of those 10k folks, 50 are going to purchase a sign at some point this year. The one printer... it may break this year, it may not.
Just saying, two totally different markets.

Some days I feel like the situation we're in will either make or break the company and I'm not sure if that's a good situation to constantly live in, but it makes things exciting I guess.

See, I don't have days like that, I have 2am wake up moments of 'aww what the f*ck am I doing' that run in a feedback loop until I get out of bed and get some coffee. Exciting is one way to describe it.

Do you ever play with small CNCs? If you felt like building a mini CNC / rotary engraver for doing braille, I'd jump on that list quick. I'm definitely not paying 30-40k for a Vision or similar. Can't believe what they charge for those things either!

Man, my 6x12 router cuts my multi layered ada stuff, it kicks the crap out of the old engraver we have. Haven't gotten it to do braille, mostly because of the lack of a 'nose' on the spindle to keep any variation from going too deep, but I am certain it could work across a small area.

Now have to test painting edges to match face film to see if we can simulate actual brushed brass letters.

Looking at the picture here, slap some vinyl on the back and it'll look 90% like brushed brass.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Hit a Michael's or Hobby Lobby, lots of nice brass-ish paints to play with.

 

[White Haus]

Lots of CNC background, went to school for automation and controls and went off the damn deep end over the past 24 years. Wanting raised braille (additive) or recessed braille (subtractive)? Looked into using epoxies (printed) or tiny pins for making raised letters as it ends up being super easy to assemble by just tapping the pins into the milled holes. Can do everything on a $400 benchtop Chinese CNC quite easily. For volume, more automation would be key, but still not difficult. Stuff only really gets expensive when it gets large. I love that we live in an age where $3 internet capable microcontrollers are a thing.

Hmm, good questions. I wanna say subtractive so I can pop the beads in the old fashion way, to start.

There is a cool additive solution out there, which apparently/theoretically can be mounted to just about any CNC with X/Y/Z axis control: https://www.quillada.com/

 

[JBurton]

There is a cool additive solution out there, which apparently/theoretically can be mounted to just about any CNC with X/Y/Z axis control: https://www.quillada.com/

3,500? Out of my way, I need this. F*ck, I just spent $800 on a pen that holds the beads and autofeeds instead of the old fishtank pump setup.
Though I bet the resin isn't cheap...

 

[White Haus]

So, there is probably one printer for every 10,000 folks in my town. Of those 10k folks, 50 are going to purchase a sign at some point this year. The one printer... it may break this year, it may not.
Just saying, two totally different markets.

See, I don't have days like that, I have 2am wake up moments of 'aww what the f*ck am I doing' that run in a feedback loop until I get out of bed and get some coffee. Exciting is one way to describe it.

Man, my 6x12 router cuts my multi layered ada stuff, it kicks the crap out of the old engraver we have. Haven't gotten it to do braille, mostly because of the lack of a 'nose' on the spindle to keep any variation from going too deep, but I am certain it could work across a small area.

Looking at the picture here, slap some vinyl on the back and it'll look 90% like brushed brass.

Man, I've had more 2:30am starts over the last month than I'd care to admit. Part excitement/part anxiety about the fact that I can't possibly get everything done every day. "Slept in" until 4 this morning, was a real treat but felt like I missed out on the start of the morning.

I've been tempted to try some braille on our Summa flatbed cutter w/ router, but that thing is so damn inconsistent I can't see it actually drilling the same depth every time.

 

[White Haus]

3,500? Out of my way, I need this. F*ck, I just spent $800 on a pen that holds the beads and autofeeds instead of the old fishtank pump setup.
Though I bet the resin isn't cheap...

Lmao, I can't believe Accent signage or whatever can charge what they do for the pen and "license"....it's highway robbery really.

I seem to remember the resin isn't too bad. There is a certain member here that runs one of these units and has for a while, I believe he's been happy with it for the most part.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Hmm, good questions. I wanna say subtractive so I can pop the beads in the old fashion way, to start.

There is a cool additive solution out there, which apparently/theoretically can be mounted to just about any CNC with X/Y/Z axis control: https://www.quillada.com/

For that kind of price, you'd think they would mount a damn UV light on the thing. "Use the included UV flashlight so you can cure the resin when you want." Yeah, last time I tried that BS line on a printer rebuild, I was told to screw off and just fix the lamps. =P

Here you go, $70 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087QDDJPW

 

[JBurton]

For that kind of price, you'd think they would mount a damn UV light on the thing. "Use the included UV flashlight so you can cure the resin when you want." Yeah, last time I tried that BS line on a printer rebuild, I was told to screw off and just fix the lamps. =P

Here you go, $70 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087QDDJPW

I see a slight benefit to a standalone curing station, like lower likelihood of clogged nozzle from being cured and deciding the braille should have been placed higher on the sign, wipe off and redo. Also, the little actuator detecting the material surface is pretty ingenious, but I can also see it being a pain, as often times the braille is within 5/8" from the edge of the sign, and lettering has already been applied.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

The industry standard adhesive dispenser systems use swappable tips for that very reason. Buy hundreds for just a few bucks if you want. If you're selling automation, take the effort to automate. If people want to play flashlight curing games, give them the option to turn it off. If this was a 3D printed gizmo for slapping on a CNC machine, sure. But they're selling a $3500 polished product, with a cartridge ecosystem (which the tips are part of the cartridges).

 

[Stacey K]

I'm more of a creative than engineer so that was too much reading for me.

I guess my advice would be, don't be afraid to ask your customers for ideas! Not to judge, but the pot people are probably creative types and people simply enjoy helping others!

--- I have sat down with NUMEROUS customers and showed them Wave Accounting (it's free) and gave them a quick run-down on what they need to do for accounting and how to set-up invoices because they were doing them by hand.
--- I have gotten paid by the hour to set up FB pages and literally schedule posts for my customers. They hand me their phone and passwords, text me a bunch of photos and I just do it and when I'm done, they change their password.
---The Amish send me photos and I send them to Walmart so they can create photo albums of their work (they pay me by the hour)
--- And now I make TikToks for people too! LOL My landscaper customer wants me to follow him around on the mower for the day so we can make videos and add music.

If you have a good working relationship with certain customers DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK FOR HELP!!! It's a simple conversation that might start like..."I'm struggling with my marketing, could I pick your brain?" People love to talk about themselves and what they do...and that is free!

I would start a FB page first and post a bunch of stuff on it then share the crap out of it. For me, in a small town, it's been GOLDEN for advertising.

Tik Tok is world-wide, maybe you could start a TT shop and sell ink...or whatever, I didn't read everything you do. You could talk about your machines...IDK, people like to watch strange things and maybe your nerdiness will be very marketable!

It's worth a shot!

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Been lots of good advice in both this thread and in private, understanding the weak points are helping a ton and I am also talking to other shops where we might be able to help them solve their problems with machines, or engineering (for a nominal fee). I think part of the problem is regional with how much printing business was set up after the weed legalization in OK and things are starting to contract. Social media is definitely a massive weak point for us, but it's damn near vital these days. Talking to a person who wants a ton of prints done who does social media stuff for a living, so been talking a lot to her and getting advice. I feel like I am talking to someone from another planet, but I am way out of touch there.