I see so many requests for identification of butt ugly fonts in this section. Don't people have any persuasive abilities anymore? I've always felt it was part of being a good designer to steer your customers in the direction of a good layout. It seems like way to many sign makers are just accepting crappy nephew art from their customers and perfectly happy to reproduce that crappy art on a sign as long as they get paid. Most of these fonts I see being asked to be identified are free computer fonts. These fonts, in most cases, do not make good sign letters. I challenge you all to step up your game, use good fonts and show the customer how much better your layout is than their nephew art. You are suppose to be sign professionals. Act like it and don't let the customer dictate what is good design. THEY DON"T KNOW! It can be done very tactfully. Have them do the squint test. You print the layout and they squint while looking at it. Butt ugly fonts that have no business being on a sign will become nearly unreadable. It's the same as looking at a sign from a distance. Ask your customer if they really need to use their font if it is difficult for their target audience to read their sign. I've persuaded many customers this way and it usually ends up with new found respect for your abilities. Go to Letterhead Fonts or Sign Fonts and see what REAL sign fonts look like. A few bucks spent on quality fonts will set you apart from the crowd.
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Butt Ugly Fonts
- Thread starter Sandman
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I agree with you 1,000%.
I also think, the vast majority of these people asking for these fugly types styles don't know any better themselves..... OR they would be doing exactly as you say.
Not to mention, many of these people are doing business cards and such and don't have anything invested..... or should I say can't have anything invested, so why not use your time for free ??
Lastly, back when we used to hand paint signs, the customers were always insistent that the letters be straight and perfectly round, proper serifs and whatnot. Now, the fuglier... the better with no concern for neatness. Some of these styles shouldn't even be duplicated...... once.
I also think, the vast majority of these people asking for these fugly types styles don't know any better themselves..... OR they would be doing exactly as you say.
Not to mention, many of these people are doing business cards and such and don't have anything invested..... or should I say can't have anything invested, so why not use your time for free ??
Lastly, back when we used to hand paint signs, the customers were always insistent that the letters be straight and perfectly round, proper serifs and whatnot. Now, the fuglier... the better with no concern for neatness. Some of these styles shouldn't even be duplicated...... once.
WhiskeyDreamer
Professional Snow Ninja
How much shop experience do you have? I'm not asking to be mean, but I've got pretty many years under my belt and yes, there are some customers that you can persuade. And then there are the ones that no matter what you show them, they want the horrible crap they brought you.
Most of the time, I don't even receive supplied artwork. I talk to the client and ask questions about the sign and where it's going and what impact they want. Then take their info and create something from scratch. They love it and I produce it. Those are ideal clients, obviously.
Then you have the knucklehead that walks in with a PowerPoint presentation on their thumb drive, and they can't understand why I can't use that file. Don't I have software that can open that? Or the dreaded PUB file! These are the people that even when you show them something that is severely better, they still look at you like "Why did you do that? I don't want that."
So yes, sometimes we have to work with files and art that we don't like. It's part of the job.
Most of the time, I don't even receive supplied artwork. I talk to the client and ask questions about the sign and where it's going and what impact they want. Then take their info and create something from scratch. They love it and I produce it. Those are ideal clients, obviously.
Then you have the knucklehead that walks in with a PowerPoint presentation on their thumb drive, and they can't understand why I can't use that file. Don't I have software that can open that? Or the dreaded PUB file! These are the people that even when you show them something that is severely better, they still look at you like "Why did you do that? I don't want that."
So yes, sometimes we have to work with files and art that we don't like. It's part of the job.
bannertime
Active Member
Designers and Sign Makers are two different people. There is a middle ground, but most people don't have time for that. We specifically like to cater to those with their own artwork or those that just need the quick bold text, two color banner. For our top maybe 5-6 customers we offer a bit more tailored service. For the rest...
If it meets my 4 requirements, I'll make it, no problem. They are; Contrasting Colors, Effective, Print Ready Resolution, Original Art.
Contrasting Colors is obviously not using white and light grey on a yard sign.
Effective is defined as being able to get the point across, i.e. not using a light font to express "look at me!"
Print Ready Resolution is of course having the resolution to print clearly.
Original Art consist of watermark free, commercial licensed, etc artwork. No Google Images clip art.
If it doesn't meet those, we do what we can to rectify it.
We only explain so many times that "hey, people may not be able to get all this information or understand the point of this," to a customer. In simple terms; 50% of the time they agree and we redo it, the other 50% they say no go with it. Out of that last group about 30% have us redo the order, 60% love it as it was, and the remaining 10% we may never see again. That 10% may be like 0.5% of all the customers that we deal with. So I'm not going to bother arguing with them. Such is business. I'm not hurting for customers, but I have no reason to push away the ones I have because they won't let me change their layout.
We are not a design firm nor will we pretend to be. If a custom wants their ugly font, they can have it.
If it meets my 4 requirements, I'll make it, no problem. They are; Contrasting Colors, Effective, Print Ready Resolution, Original Art.
Contrasting Colors is obviously not using white and light grey on a yard sign.
Effective is defined as being able to get the point across, i.e. not using a light font to express "look at me!"
Print Ready Resolution is of course having the resolution to print clearly.
Original Art consist of watermark free, commercial licensed, etc artwork. No Google Images clip art.
If it doesn't meet those, we do what we can to rectify it.
We only explain so many times that "hey, people may not be able to get all this information or understand the point of this," to a customer. In simple terms; 50% of the time they agree and we redo it, the other 50% they say no go with it. Out of that last group about 30% have us redo the order, 60% love it as it was, and the remaining 10% we may never see again. That 10% may be like 0.5% of all the customers that we deal with. So I'm not going to bother arguing with them. Such is business. I'm not hurting for customers, but I have no reason to push away the ones I have because they won't let me change their layout.
We are not a design firm nor will we pretend to be. If a custom wants their ugly font, they can have it.
Marlene
New Member
some of those letterhead or sign fonts are pretty ugly too. I do agree that some of the "what is this" are awful and any attempt to make more of anything with them should be avoided at all cost if you can. the biggest problem are graphic designers. some of the worst looking crap comes from them. once someone has paid for a design from them, it is nearly impossible to get them to change. a few years back we did talk a hospital into using another font as the designer never considered where it would be used. try finding your way around when the font is super thin and done as 500% spacing.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I don't think designers vs. sign makers has any more to do with it than if someone is lefthanded or righthanded. Fugly types styles are ugly no matter who is looking at them..... or having to work with them.
While some of you will just bow to the customer's whims, it's still your name on the placard and you get all the credit..... good or bad.
While some of you will just bow to the customer's whims, it's still your name on the placard and you get all the credit..... good or bad.
WhiskeyDreamer
Professional Snow Ninja
So you've never done a shitty sign for a client because they wouldn't allow you to improve their design?
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I don't think that's what the OP had in mind when starting this thread. I don't think it's about making fugly signs vs. top notch signs, but how many horrible types styles are showing up at this place and no one seems to be upset about it.. How many really neat or nice types styles are being asked about ?? Not many..... and it ain't because these people know the difference.
To your question, in about 46 years, not many. Not many, at all. However, we just did one not too long ago. It was almost a $10,000 sign. The customer had a local designer do it and it was so wispy and dumb and we tried to help her, but she paid wa-a-a-ay too much money to have us change anything. After about 2 weeks, I finally did make some changes, but didn't tell her. She said, see, I knew this logo would work. I asked her several times if she was happy with it and she said yes, indeed. I like it more now, then when we first got started. I made the main copy beefier, the secondary copy much more stockier and reduced the size of her tree to get the copy larger. They weren't bad type styles, but the usage was that of a typical designer...... too flimsy, too much negative space and poor usage of colors. Looking at her logo in a magazine, website or whatever, was fine, but up on a sign, 20' in the air along a road where they go about 55 mph, it was worthless.
However, as you mentioned, I won't turn away good money, if I can adjust it, no matter how fugly it is.................
Maybe I'm just lucky. But my customers trust me to design them effective advertising. Every once in a while I get someone bringing in what we call nephew art. You just have to shmooze them a little. Like, this is really a good start, but here's what I can do to make it more effective for you. After all, isn't your goal to (insert best description here like make more money, tell customers who you are, attract attention to your business or product) It's not all that hard to do. Like Gino says, it's your name or reputation on that sign.
fenris242, I've owned my own shop for 35 years. I started on my own from the beginning.
I studied design and composition myself because when I saw my first SighCraft magazine, I knew right there I didn't want to slap ugly fonts on a board and call it a sign. As far as I'm concerned, any sign maker that has not read Mastering Layout by Mike Stevens needs to, or they are not serious about designing or building quality signs. The simplest for sale sign can benefit from proper layout. I guess it depends on whether you want to be labeled a professional or not. Persuasive skills can be honed. I've never failed to convince a customer that their favorite computer font does not belong on a sign.
fenris242, I've owned my own shop for 35 years. I started on my own from the beginning.
I studied design and composition myself because when I saw my first SighCraft magazine, I knew right there I didn't want to slap ugly fonts on a board and call it a sign. As far as I'm concerned, any sign maker that has not read Mastering Layout by Mike Stevens needs to, or they are not serious about designing or building quality signs. The simplest for sale sign can benefit from proper layout. I guess it depends on whether you want to be labeled a professional or not. Persuasive skills can be honed. I've never failed to convince a customer that their favorite computer font does not belong on a sign.
I agree that graphic designers are not very versed in signage. They seem to be trained more for print media where you don't have to worry about line weight and being able to read a sign while driving. I'll also bet that 98 times out of 100 that customer that insists on the ugly font, if kicked to the curb, would account for .005% of your business. I like to send them to my competition. Keeps them busy making junk for very little profit.
shoresigns
New Member
We often suggest improvements on the designs we get from customers. We'll fix the kerning in their logo if it's really bad, we'll reverse Google their low-res images and replace them with better copies to improve print quality, and when we get PDF artwork that's obviously been exported from MS Word/Publisher, we often redesign it for them.
We charge for our design time and expertise, and clients praise us for going over and above what they expected.
We charge for our design time and expertise, and clients praise us for going over and above what they expected.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Do you charge extra for any of that ??
shoresigns
New Member
Yes, all of it. If you explain the improvements in terms that the client understands, it's not difficult to convince them to pay a little more for a better design. You'll definitely get better at selling design with practice.
Johnny Best
Active Member
We are all guilty of using the customer's ugly fonts and logos. If you don't want to see the fonts that someone is looking for on here, don't look. They may be ugly to us but to the customer or someone else it is their child and they do not see it.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
When I worked for sign shops, it was fair to say that those shops were
replicators... if I had the time, I would do alternate layouts and had the
client choose... many chose their original crap...
We occasionally look for sign shop designers and the crap we get on portfolios
is some of the worse stuff.
I send stuff out all the time to sign shops all over the country and get back various
adjustments... most are very bad. Before a sign shop designer starts farting
around with a layout, do they really know better?
When a client comes to us, we are usually designing everything... on occasion
the client will give us crap ideas... we generally don't make it a habit of designing
poorly but depending on the clients insistence, most of those bad ideas are
polished to a nice shiny turd...
replicators... if I had the time, I would do alternate layouts and had the
client choose... many chose their original crap...
We occasionally look for sign shop designers and the crap we get on portfolios
is some of the worse stuff.
I send stuff out all the time to sign shops all over the country and get back various
adjustments... most are very bad. Before a sign shop designer starts farting
around with a layout, do they really know better?
When a client comes to us, we are usually designing everything... on occasion
the client will give us crap ideas... we generally don't make it a habit of designing
poorly but depending on the clients insistence, most of those bad ideas are
polished to a nice shiny turd...
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Johnny Best
Active Member
Did a logo for a construction company last year. He came back to me for another business he purchased and did some more logo work. He then needed realestate construction signs and when I made them I tweeked both his logos to fix some things. You know how when you see things you wish you would have changed about the design.
When I delivered them he did not even notice the changes. Most people cannot tell the difference if you change something unless it is some grunge type or Helvetica and Univers. You see it when people post type they are looking for and someone says it is this one, it may be close but not the exact. There are differences but only to a trained eye. Also some people love something or designed but there is always going to be someone who does not like it and want to change it. All lawyers have logos now, they look like they get those Pakistans on $5 logo sites to do them. They love that Trajan Pro font.
I just copy what they have collect my money and don't worry about it. I like to think of myself as a sign prostitute not a sign designer.
When I delivered them he did not even notice the changes. Most people cannot tell the difference if you change something unless it is some grunge type or Helvetica and Univers. You see it when people post type they are looking for and someone says it is this one, it may be close but not the exact. There are differences but only to a trained eye. Also some people love something or designed but there is always going to be someone who does not like it and want to change it. All lawyers have logos now, they look like they get those Pakistans on $5 logo sites to do them. They love that Trajan Pro font.
I just copy what they have collect my money and don't worry about it. I like to think of myself as a sign prostitute not a sign designer.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
DravidDavid
New Member
It's easy to tell your customer their font sucks. It's hard to get them to pay you to change it when they think "it looks fine".
We work mainly with supplied artwork. It's almost always too hard basket trying to convince someone to change their art, so I mostly don't bother. Some butt ugly fonts look pretty good in the right configuration though.
We work mainly with supplied artwork. It's almost always too hard basket trying to convince someone to change their art, so I mostly don't bother. Some butt ugly fonts look pretty good in the right configuration though.