cabinet LED retrofits

[Rocco G]

Has anyone had any experience with Quik Stik (or something similar) leds for cabinet retrofits? In the past couple of days I've had a pair of requests for can retrofits and this kind of thing looks to be an alternative to a lattice system. One job is a 6x8 DF can that originally had pan faces but has flat faces (thin can). The other is a large SF marquee with a curve with a normal depth. Each need a lighting overhaul and a lattice LED systems seems too expensive. I.E. for the 6x8 DF the lattice pieces alone would be over $800.00. I can change the ballasts and lamps a couple times over for those part costs. The large marquee is ~72' long and those parts would be over $3K. Still much more than florescent. These are Maxbrite prices btw. I'm sure I can find el cheapos but don't go that route with parts.

I'm not married to these Quik Stik things, but am looking to see if anyone had experience. I'm open to other suggestions with out hesitation.

We do retrofits for national companies (mainly ch letters and the occasional cabinet) and am getting more and more requests from small local stores. It's on all the business owners lips lately. TBH, I don't think it's worthwhile to blindly change from florescent to LED's and have told them this. They still want it.

Thanks!

Thanks

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

If the customer is hellbent on the sugar high of LED then there isn't much you can do about it other than try and educate them then do the work according to what they want to pay for it and keep them as a happy customer.

If the existing ballasts are magnetic then on the cabinets, T12 are approx 10.7 (from 13w) watts per linear foot, T8's 3.375 watts per foot for electronics. For a DS 6'x8' cab you're looking at possibly four lamps 342 watts or $114.00 per year in annual cost of operation, and only what $8 for a 8' lamp? $57 for the single ballast? $89 in combined cost. Upgrade to some long life Voltarc Tri-Star lamps 18,000 hours of life with better electrodes to help with cycling help and you'll easily get 6 years of life. Where will the el cheapo LEDs be in that time? chances are they'll be paying for another retrofit for the retrofit.

Will the qwik stiks be just as bright? No. It will be much dimmer BUT, you'll save in energy AND they will pay more for less in the end. Ask if that makes sense to them?

What pricing are you getting on the Principal Qwik Sticks per foot? For a DS sign it will be 5 watts per foot.



If you you;'re looking at other options then I would suggest a long proven LED that we have tested since 2008 in our LED / Neon comparison's but just started distributing this last September, the Axiom high powered LED
http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?121299-Axiom-High-Powered-White-LED&highlight=axiom

It's Nichia, which is the best of the best when it comes to white LED's and it's only $4.00 a foot at 3.2 watts, or 6.4 for the double sided.

The Axiom's are the brightest in their class for HB LED's and their just as bright as a T8 lamp and a hair short of a 13mm Tri-Neon lamps running on 60ma

204 watts or $68.34 annual cost of operation.


I'm not a big fan of retrofits, the customer always pays more and most of the time depending on accessibility the most logical choice is to just retrofit with better / new ballasts and improved quality long life tri-lamps coupled with possibly re-engineering of the sign circuitry. The signs themselves might be having issues because they were poorly put together maybe not loaded right, maybe their open to water and moisture with poor placement of the ballasts. Maybe if the ballasts were electronics the fabricator tied all the secondary leads together tightly which don't do well for electronic ballasts.

But my suggestion is Axiom for the LEDs, if you need to go that route

 

[Typestries]

Rocco have you looked at the sylvania boxLED solution Glantz has? Pretty good price point. We're testing the modules for a specialty fab project.

 

[Rocco G]

The signs themselves might be having issues because they were poorly put together maybe not loaded right, maybe their open to water and moisture with poor placement of the ballasts. Maybe if the ballasts were electronics the fabricator tied all the secondary leads together tightly which don't do well for electronic ballasts.

But my suggestion is Axiom for the LEDs, if you need to go that route"

Eric,

The long marquee is a true POS that really should be replaced, but it's "historic" - as if a plastic faced can with 100% changeable copy can be historic. It's a local theater where 2nd tier music acts come and play. I.E. Cat Stevens was appearing the day after I did some emergency repairs. Someone got them on the LED conversion train. TBH, I'm pretty sure that I won't even get the job because they got a generic LED retro-fit conversion without specs from an area low-baller. But, the worst they can do is say no. And in a few years when it all fails (because they were sold cheap parts) perhaps we can do it all again, but this time properly.

Also, the only electronic ballast in that sign is the one I installed to run some 96" tubes to get Cats name lit up. The newest in that sign is at least 20 years old.

I did look at the Axiom LED's on your site, but I'd have to make up some sort of grid to install them. Not that that's a deal breaker, but it just adds to the labor time with this job. There is no way I could just install these on the back of that can, it's so bad. It needs a lattice arrangement of some sort, though I'd bet that the low bidder will just cobble together something cheap.

I was only asking about those sticks because I happened to be discarding some Sign Builder Illustrated mags (we get duplicates each month) and one opened to that ad. It was also just coincidence that I had gotten a request to retro that 6 x 8 cabinet sign. When I was there I told the store owner that LED's are a waste (for now at least) but he has an LED bug in his head. Once he gets the price difference, I'm sure we'll just swap out the ballasts and lamps. Now if I could only get him to spring for new pan faces the sign would light properly, but that's not gonna happen.

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

Haha, well take some pics of the sign after their LED conversion from the no name and have fun with it until they call you. You can even tempt the client that going with you, you can assure a 5 year electrical warranty, doubt they would even get a 1 year from your competitor.

On the Axioms, you just treat as T8 Lamps, no need for a grid. Most just use some Alum angles, with T12 or 8 spacing and screw the angles inside the double sided cabinet and attach the Axiom LEDs on both sides. That makes it faster.

If you ever get a small job, try em out. You won't be disappointed, their bright as hell and they kick ***! Your client will be happy it'll attract word of mouth and referrals for sure.

 

[Rocco G]

Rocco have you looked at the sylvania boxLED solution Glantz has? Pretty good price point. We're testing the modules for a specialty fab project.

Rick,

I'll give Glantz a call and see how these look. TBH, I've been mad at Glantz since they gave all of the employees at the Phila branch the royal shaft but I guess it's time to give them another shot.

How have you been? I haven't been down that way in a while. If I get down in the spring I'll stick my head in and say hi.

Rocco

 

[Rocco G]

Haha, well take some pics of the sign after their LED conversion from the no name and have fun with it until they call you. You can even tempt the client that going with you, you can assure a 5 year electrical warranty, doubt they would even get a 1 year from your competitor.

On the Axioms, you just treat as T8 Lamps, no need for a grid. Most just use some Alum angles, with T12 or 8 spacing and screw the angles inside the double sided cabinet and attach the Axiom LEDs on both sides. That makes it faster.

If you ever get a small job, try em out. You won't be disappointed, their bright as hell and they kick ***! Your client will be happy it'll attract word of mouth and referrals for sure.

For this marquee sign, a grid of some sort is a must. If I had my way I'd have them junk the whole pile of garbage. I'm going to quote it my way and let the chips fall where they may.

I might look into the axiom led's for that DF sign. Mounting them on a piece of angle is a good idea.