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Calling all Design Police............................................

Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Alrightie then............................

Lady came into the shop yesterday and asked if we could make some signs for her. Gave her a price and she already gave a deposit on the spot. She has a bunch she needs and will be needing some more. The signs we are making are replacing some old signs. There are no logos on these, that I know of, but she asked if we could duplicate the existing signs completely, down to some of the ugly lettering that was used and some basic layout elements which have been misused also. I have no problem with duplicating the ugly styles and whatnot, but am I stepping on anyone's toes by using the exact same layouts/designs ??

Reason for this is, she has no files, artwork or anything. I'm doing it from a photograph for some of the big ones and an actual old sign for the smaller ones.


Now, we move ahead to today and a guy just left the shop and wants his truck copied onto his new truck he'll be getting in a week or so. I told him to do something like he had was gonna cost about $850.00 with some minor tweaks and changes. He got concerned and said, I want it to look exactly like what's on there now. Can you do that ?? Sure, but wouldn't you want us to make it look a little neater and pull out some of the good points and make them better ?? No. I want it just as is. Well, you have a logo on there, which I can completely duplicate, but I can do things with it and make it loook even better. No. I want it just as is. Why doesn't the guy who did this the first time want to do it again ?? I don't wanna work with him any longer. He's too expensive and hard to get a hold of. Screw 'em. If you can't do it, I'll find someone who can. No, we'll do it the way you want it.

Again, he has no files, artwork or anything, so I have to copy what's on there. Am I again stepping on anyone's toes by copying what's been on a truck for what looks like 10 years ?? I'm not duplicating files, just an image.


I'm getting tired of going by the book, when the customer knows what they want and has no rights [or can't prove] ownership to the copy/logo/whatever on their own personal item... and letting some schmuck do the work later.

If I didn't post it here, no one would be the wiser, so what's the deal on this one ??



:thankyou: Gino
​
 
SignManiac

SignManiac

New Member
Great opportunity to upsell a new and better and original sign without any infringement issues. Of course that only works when you refuse to do their crap work.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I can't post pictures cause I didn't take any of the guy's truck, but even if I had, I won't do that as there are a few members on this site who have bid on this same truck. I don't want them going to him with any of this stuff.

The girl's signs are also kinda the same.

It amazes me how many members on this site in the past have gotten other members in trouble by calling phone numbers and e-mailing behind member's backs here directly to the customer creating all kinds of messes.


Maniac...... can't upsell either of them. I tried with the guy and his truck and he said he wanted the exact same thing. I can understand it. After 10 years some people wanna move on and let go of the past while others want to hold onto it with the old saying.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. As for the girl, it's a legal and cost thing. These are mainly twonship signs and must meet certain codes. Can't be relief or have much color..... and looking at the signs, can't have much pizazz, either.
 
F

fresh

New Member
We will usually copy what someone already had done. I don't really understand the whole "I WANT IT EXACTLY THE SAME" particularly when it is a pretty shiatty layout to begin with, but to each their own. Honestly, it's easier to just do what they want, and I can save my creativity and time working on a project where it is appreciated.

I get really PO'd when someone uses my artwork without paying for it, but if they got a basic truck lettering, and then decided to go to someone else with their next one, and they want to copy it, eh, whatever. I ain't got time for worrying about the little things.
 
JgS

JgS

New Member
I have no problem copying someone's design as long as there is no water mark on it or I suspect it was just pulled off the internet or a proof.
 
deegrafix

deegrafix

New Member
If you don't do it someone else will. Can't really help the lady on design but for the man, can you do a layout with the little changes and stand with him next to the truck to point out the little improvements? He may go for it because he may not really see as big of a difference as you do, just that it looks neater and cleaner. So, a half win for both of you.

I've had a couple customers tell me that if so-n-so was the last sign company left in the county they would go to the next rather than call him again and if they tell me they own their logo but don't have artwork for whatever reason I am not going to call them a liar. What about all these internet suppliers popping up? Do you think they are asking questions?
 
TammieH

TammieH

New Member
Its the customer's signs/vehicle...we in the sign business have never gotten the same respect from original art as a "designer". And really who cares?

Most of us are wanna be artists, applying our trade anyway we know how.

Once the customer pays for the job its theirs...
unless someone copy writes the art, puts in writing and it is signed that they cannot have their artwork reproduced.

Honestly, not sure why anyone would do that though.

Make the customer happy!
Have fun!
Earn an honest living!
...who could ask for anything more!
 
PRS Bryan

PRS Bryan

Member
I am sure this will not go over well but.....................

Recreate it.

People want to act like they can create an idea or an image and then control what others do with it.

Sorry to say that once I see something it is in my head and may well show itself later.

You can't control people or their thoughts. If you want to be the only person to have an idea or image keep it to yourself.
 
boxerbay

boxerbay

New Member
TammieH said:
Its the customer's signs/vehicle...we in the sign business have never gotten the same respect from original art as a "designer". And really who cares?

Most of us are wanna be artists, applying our trade anyway we know how.

Once the customer pays for the job its theirs...
unless someone copy writes the art, puts in writing and it is signed that they cannot have their artwork reproduced.

Honestly, not sure why anyone would do that though.

Make the customer happy!
Have fun!
Earn an honest living!
...who could ask for anything more!
Click to expand...

she got it right.

"cash or credit? NEXT!"
 
S

SalagoDes

New Member
This is correct

As previously posted. Its the customer's signs/vehicle...we in the sign business have never gotten the same respect from original art as a "designer". And really who cares?

Most of us are wanna be artists, applying our trade anyway we know how.

Once the customer pays for the job its theirs...
unless someone copy writes the art, puts in writing and it is signed that they cannot have their artwork reproduced.

Honestly, not sure why anyone would do that though.

Make the customer happy!
Have fun!
Earn an honest living!
...who could ask for anything more!
 
S

SalagoDes

New Member
..Also

I have found that when you are creating the new design to look like to old one, duplicate it and add your tweaks if it's not too much, let your customer review them b and then the decision is theirs. In the past I have found that over 95% of my customers prefer the updated cleaner version, even if its just a simple font change in the lettering and phone number.
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
I have had the same situation more than once in the 30+ years I've been doing this.
I always go thruo the same song and dance about improving the design, but if they don't
want it I do the job as it was and move on.
 
OldPaint

OldPaint

New Member
and then there is THAT JOB... you got a 72 dpi jpeg, to work from,YOU rebuild the whole logo, into a vector , blown up to a 4 foot X 10 foot backlit sign...................THEN A COUPLE YEARS LATER, they call you and ask YOU TO SEND THE VECTOR FILE TO ANOTHER SIGN COMPANY so that company can letter the doors on a truck .............and expect it FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!!! i sent them the ORIGINAL 72 DPI JPEG)))))
 
A

axis

New Member
TammieH said:
Its the customer's signs/vehicle...we in the sign business have never gotten the same respect from original art as a "designer". And really who cares?

Most of us are wanna be artists, applying our trade anyway we know how.

Once the customer pays for the job its theirs...
unless someone copy writes the art, puts in writing and it is signed that they cannot have their artwork reproduced.

Honestly, not sure why anyone would do that though.

Make the customer happy!
Have fun!
Earn an honest living!
...who could ask for anything more!
Click to expand...


I'm having a hard time putting into words how much this kind of thinking creeps me out. Maybe for starters, have a little integrity and the respect will follow. If you don't value your work ( and it sounds like you don't ) no one else will. Read U.S. copyright law so you can understand what's protected and what isn't. Two lines of Franklin Gothic down the side of a van- copy away! When I have 100+ hours in a Corporate Identity/branding program and you're ripping it off, meet my attorney. Sure, there are the times when the original sign company is no longer in business and the customer can't get the art even if they want to, no problem. Then there are the times when someone wants reproduce a nice graphic that you know was done last year by the shop across town. I'm going to check to make sure they have reproduction rights. There are enough bottom feeders out there already. Why be one of them?
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
QUOTE]When I have 100+ hours in a Corporate Identity/branding program and you're ripping it off, meet my attorney.[/QUOTE]
First of all I love it when i don't notice that I'm reading a zombie thread.
Second if you read the post this is nowhere near what the thread was about, its about exactly the kind of exemptions you mentioned, so why so upset?
 
ironchef

ironchef

New Member
I always think to a thread i read a while back, if the designer/sign shop was comissioned to design/create a logo/brand, then yea they (the desogner) need to copyright that asap, but if the customer visualized/dreamed the logo, and payed someone to put it on paper, and they bring you that paper, then the customer is just giving you a better idea of what they want(which was their own idea/concept to begin with), if the original designer didnt charge for that proof thats his fault, if he charged... good, because im definetly going to charge extra to vectorize/reproduce anything, the idea/concept is the property of the client. Im sure all the big time designers making logos/brands/design campaigns/etc. are covering their butts by charging alot of $$$, and making the client sign a bunch of stuff. I recently reproduced a logo for a company that was sending me png files of the logo, i kept emailing them asking if they had access to better files or if they can call the designer who made the logo and get a better file. I was later sent eps, pdf, and jpg files and all of those had a small flattened bitmap on them, lmao, i had my self a laugh, thought to myself im wasting more time going back and forth so i just vectorized it in like 15 min. But hey i tried doing it the right way, i always do. But im not going to deny or turn down a job, thats food on my plate. Im pretty sure my client payed for his design and i also remember reading a thread that if the client has payed for design/logo and can show a receipt/invoice, then by law its their property and are entitled to use whenever.
 
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