Can I do this without employees...

[OldPaint]

DAMN YOU DA BEST HUH???? hahahahahahahahaahaha i bet you passed that art school test on a book of matches huh))))))
My suggestion: Get rid of the designer and concentrate on hiring a fabrication/installation expert. Outsource the design to a sign design professional - sign design that you cannot do yourself due to time or experience.

 

[JJGraphics]

Perhaps you have the same problem with both employees, you just don't see it.

That's the question I keep asking myself. This is my 13th year in business, I've had up to 7 people working here at once. Right now there's myself and 3 others, my gf/fiancée, one "whatever needs to be done guy" (shows up whenever he rolls out of bed, but works his butt off while he's here) and our graphics guy. Our graphic guy has been here for a year this month and just approached me for a raise, now let me say, he does great work...but, it takes him forever to complete a design. Everything, right down to a simple yard sign becomes a major undertaking. I don't know how many times I've walked past his desk and said, "That looks great, we can run with that." and then walk by half and hour or 45 mins later and he's still dicking with it. Yes, I've spoken to him about it. Getting to the point, he's not going to be happy with what I tell him come Monday. I've run this place by myself before, it's not fun. The cash I got to keep was sweet, but the hours I was working drained me. Seems like no matter how many years I've been in business, I'm always at a crossroads.

It seems like you let one guy basically do whatever he wants and you're okay with it, but the designer does what he wants (playing with the computer) and you're not okay with it.

If I'm the designer and I see my coworker come and go when he wants, I'm gonna do what I want to do too.

Just a thought.

 

[Marlene]

first off what you see as a very long time on a design may or may be a long time. what you see as finished and ready to go may be OK but a designer doesn't put out OK work and will tweak it until it is better. what you have to ask yourself is are your customer's happy with the design work as that is who it is for and what makes you money. setting a time limit on a design is hard. you can have levels of what you offer a customer, from simple to complex and talk that over with the designer so you both are on the same page with that.

 

[TimToad]

first off what you see as a very long time on a design may or may be a long time. what you see as finished and ready to go may be OK but a designer doesn't put out OK work and will tweak it until it is better. what you have to ask yourself is are your customer's happy with the design work as that is who it is for and what makes you money. setting a time limit on a design is hard. you can have levels of what you offer a customer, from simple to complex and talk that over with the designer so you both are on the same page with that.

I'm sorry, but to elevate the typical day to day, run of the mill "layout" work we all must do effectively AND time efficiently to "design" work worthy of multiple time consuming tweaks and adjustments is at the crux of the OP's concern. I totally empathize with his dilemma and am facing an identical one myself.

Sure if I'm "designing" a sign system or a series of more complex signs for a client already under contract, I'm less focused on the time it takes. But if its the type of stuff we need to knock out just to come close to turning a profit on, then my "designer" better get in sync with our hourly rate and total overhead requirements before spending more time than a job is even bringing in just on the "design" segment of its completion. Especially on the speculative "layouts" needed to help sell a job in the first place. Nothing drives me crazier than looking over at my employee and see him spending hours on a layout or design for something we haven't even secured yet as a bona fide job.

Based on what I've read, many of us, myself currently included struggle with seeing an employee either routinely milking nearly every job for way too long, ignoring the financial ramifications of such behavior on the company or not making the connection between a shop's hourly rate/pricing structure and just how long they can reasonably take to "design" an 18" x 24" coro sign or other routine work.

I've been an employee and a shop owner and whether under the employ of others or not, have always worked really hard to be as aware as possible about what my employer needs to get produced every day in order for me to keep my job. Hell, I actually had a job once many years ago where the shop owners told us upon being hired about how much revenue we needed to generate each day for them to stay viable. The cool thing about that job despite that it was almost a sweat shop work environment was that as soon as anyone completed their $600 worth of work for the day, they could go home and be paid for the rest of the day. We're talking back in the mid to late 80's, so a $75.00 per hour for a shop rate doing mostly paper signs, banners and real estate signs was pretty high. I rarely worked even a 6 hour day, got paid for 8 and the quality of the work I produced was above the shop standard. The owners loved it, but the pace finally caught up with me in addition to me building my own single person business had taken off in the meantime.

Do I expect any of our employees to care too much about their employer's bottom line or financial viability? No, not too much, but if they have any sense of self-preservation or desire to earn more and share in the prosperity they either help create or hinder its creation, then they should at least think it about it as they enter their second hour of "design" time on a simple sign.

 

[nikdoobs]

Do it by yourself. Employees will only d*ck around on signs101.com when real work needs to be done.

 

[Marlene]

I'm sorry, but to elevate the typical day to day, run of the mill "layout" work we all must do effectively AND time efficiently to "design" work worthy of multiple time consuming tweaks and adjustments is at the crux of the OP's concern. I totally empathize with his dilemma and am facing an identical one myself.

Sure if I'm "designing" a sign system or a series of more complex signs for a client already under contract, I'm less focused on the time it takes. But if its the type of stuff we need to knock out just to come close to turning a profit on, then my "designer" better get in sync with our hourly rate and total overhead requirements before spending more time than a job is even bringing in just on the "design" segment of its completion. Especially on the speculative "layouts" needed to help sell a job in the first place. Nothing drives me crazier than looking over at my employee and see him spending hours on a layout or design for something we haven't even secured yet as a bona fide job.

Based on what I've read, many of us, myself currently included struggle with seeing an employee either routinely milking nearly every job for way too long, ignoring the financial ramifications of such behavior on the company or not making the connection between a shop's hourly rate/pricing structure and just how long they can reasonably take to "design" an 18" x 24" coro sign or other routine work.

I've been an employee and a shop owner and whether under the employ of others or not, have always worked really hard to be as aware as possible about what my employer needs to get produced every day in order for me to keep my job. Hell, I actually had a job once many years ago where the shop owners told us upon being hired about how much revenue we needed to generate each day for them to stay viable. The cool thing about that job despite that it was almost a sweat shop work environment was that as soon as anyone completed their $600 worth of work for the day, they could go home and be paid for the rest of the day. We're talking back in the mid to late 80's, so a $75.00 per hour for a shop rate doing mostly paper signs, banners and real estate signs was pretty high. I rarely worked even a 6 hour day, got paid for 8 and the quality of the work I produced was above the shop standard. The owners loved it, but the pace finally caught up with me in addition to me building my own single person business had taken off in the meantime.

Do I expect any of our employees to care too much about their employer's bottom line or financial viability? No, not too much, but if they have any sense of self-preservation or desire to earn more and share in the prosperity they either help create or hinder its creation, then they should at least think it about it as they enter their second hour of "design" time on a simple sign.

I do agree with you that the day to day need to be done quicker but I don't consider a "for sale" sign a design, just a layout which is different. my question was how long is too long on an actual design to the OP. no one should be working a design for free as that is a service and a service is something that should be understood by both the designer and shop owner. my point was are you making money from this person's work meaning are sales good because of the designer's skills or not. if you get a lot of "I love I" no re-draws, no multi choices just bang, great job I'll buy it they are worth having around. if you don't have that have that on most sales, not so much

 

[garisimo]

Perhaps a visual cue would help...

We often use examples of printed signs/labels to help our customers understand the difference between a simple layout (20 minutes), a moderate layout (up to an hour), and a complex layout (2-3 hours and up). Maybe using something like this would help your designer know how to allocate time for the job. And it can be useful to put some of your designer's stunning work in the sales area indicating that this level of amazing is available for a fee.

-g-

 

[ol'phart]

Sure You Can

Sure you can and you only have to work half days...whether its the first 12 hours or the second twelve hours doesn't matter. Your the boss so you get to pick them.

 

[Jwalk]

I have never been busy enough to have steady employee so Im always searching for some one to help on big jobs. Its always a hassle .

 

[1leonchen]

if u want him to work efficient. As this simple question. if i put the above mention on commission per design u think u can make more than hourly. then if so let him have his raise. if he cant put his *** on commission. and let him see how hard work is. my boss would never give me commission years ago. he would go nuts.:Big Laugh i would make more than him. i was told hell no.

 

[GAC05]

Get one of these:

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wayne k
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[Farmboy]

Update...

To answer a few questions, I've never really worked for anyone else in my life. Grew up working on my parents dairy farm, backed upped my first tractor, baler and wagon combo well before I hit my teens, spent 4 years in the service, came back to the farm, started this as a hobby in my basement while putting a full day of work (3am to 6pm everyday, for 2 years). Folks and I decided to sell the cows, I started this full time and they still cash crop. So that's the cloth I'm cut from, I'm a worker bee, It's what I know. I always get jobs out on time. As for the work we do here, it's pretty simple quick stuff. Banners, yard signs, sign panels (poly metal or coro and I don't install) and shirt printing. So we're no where even near being a high end shop and that's fine by me. We're slammin and slow pretty much the same as most of you. I'm pushing close to 50 with no desire to be bigger than I am right now. Our two printers (Rolands) and auto (M&R, shirts) keep a steady pace. Now, back to the issue. At the end of the day Monday we chatted and I said what he was asking was reasonable, for the most part, the paid holidays, vacation time and benefits weren't going to happen, we shook hands and would talk on it more. Tue morning he comes in, late, I tell him there's a job due in the next few days and the order's been at his station and I need it worked on. So he turns to me and asked if I figured out what I can do for him, keep in mind that I've already been here for hours because some how this week got to be one of those weeks when everything is due...right now! I know you've all been there So I told him that since last night and right now I really haven't had time to think about it, although I had decided to give him a slight raise. So...not only has he shown up late he tells me, loudly, that he's thinks I've had more than enough time to think about it, and in that moment...he is correct. I tell him to take some time off and I'll call him if I need him, of course he continues to run his mouth as he walks out the door. I'm already planning some software and computer upgrades with money that's not going to payroll. The end...for now.

 

[Gino]

Good for you !!

Your background and aim in life seems to fit you and your business model. Regardless if we, he or anyone else agrees with your reasons or reasoning, it is your choice to handle things how you see work the best for everyone involved.

If someone is giving me lip and I don't feel they are justified, I'd be telling them to take some time and think about it, too.

 

[Marlene]

To answer a few questions, I've never really worked for anyone else in my life. Grew up working on my parents dairy farm, backed upped my first tractor, baler and wagon combo well before I hit my teens, spent 4 years in the service, came back to the farm, started this as a hobby in my basement while putting a full day of work (3am to 6pm everyday, for 2 years). Folks and I decided to sell the cows, I started this full time and they still cash crop. So that's the cloth I'm cut from, I'm a worker bee, It's what I know. I always get jobs out on time. As for the work we do here, it's pretty simple quick stuff. Banners, yard signs, sign panels (poly metal or coro and I don't install) and shirt printing. So we're no where even near being a high end shop and that's fine by me. We're slammin and slow pretty much the same as most of you. I'm pushing close to 50 with no desire to be bigger than I am right now. Our two printers (Rolands) and auto (M&R, shirts) keep a steady pace. Now, back to the issue. At the end of the day Monday we chatted and I said what he was asking was reasonable, for the most part, the paid holidays, vacation time and benefits weren't going to happen, we shook hands and would talk on it more. Tue morning he comes in, late, I tell him there's a job due in the next few days and the order's been at his station and I need it worked on. So he turns to me and asked if I figured out what I can do for him, keep in mind that I've already been here for hours because some how this week got to be one of those weeks when everything is due...right now! I know you've all been there So I told him that since last night and right now I really haven't had time to think about it, although I had decided to give him a slight raise. So...not only has he shown up late he tells me, loudly, that he's thinks I've had more than enough time to think about it, and in that moment...he is correct. I tell him to take some time off and I'll call him if I need him, of course he continues to run his mouth as he walks out the door. I'm already planning some software and computer upgrades with money that's not going to payroll. The end...for now.

glad you got rid of him now that we hear the how unprofessional his reaction was.

 

[twmiller24]

A union shop, I take it?

 

[Rick]

I took a look at your work, I think for the most part, you need
a production designer who can occasionally design. I would find
it mind numbing and not very creative at all. But someone has to do it.

My first gut reaction is:
No Paid Vacation
No Paid Holidays
No Benefits (I'm thinking that includes insurance, 401k or bonus)
No Raise in a year
I'm thinking this guy is lucky to get 12 an hour

And my first thought is, you suck as an employer... (hear me out)

But in reality, the real truth is:
He agreed to those terms... the designer handled it wrong. I would say...
BYE BYE DESIGNER...

I think if you have to keep employees, your always going to go through
employees without some of those benefits. I really think your best bet is
hire a freelancer... Make an arrangement that layouts do not exceed
'X' amount of dollars so that way if the get them done in 5 minutes,
they can make a profit. You might pay a little more, but not deal with
the hassle of a snot designer mumbling under his breath every time
you walk by. I freelance, but I'm the wrong designer for that type
of work, I can slam out layouts till the cows come home, it would be
fun... for a while... then my design sensibilities kick in, or I start
thinking of my career path and that whole wallowing in mediocrity
thing, then all the sudden, I'd miss deadlines, cop an attitude, and stop
taking your calls.

As an employee, if it were me, I'd work my arse off, look for a better job
on the side and then walk out at the busiest time. Leave a big gaping hole
and think to myself, you owed me nothing, I owe him nothing... I've never
done that myself, in reality I'm a worker bee and made my former employers
a lot of money, but from the get go, I had to understand the terms of
my employment. If I wanted to change them and got resistance. I either
accepted them... or bailed. In this case, I never would have taken the job.

I'm thinking this guy was desperate for work, and has been doing this for
a very long time. It is time for him to get a better paying job with benefits,
or get credit, buy a printer and an automatic press and try it himself.

You did the right thing...

But one more thought:
I see no reason for MOST employees to own their work completely when
the only benefit is a crappy paycheck and no advantage of a job well done.
Even a good employee with a perfect work ethic will question their place
in a company who only supplies a paycheck. I've always said this about
employees, they are the ones in charge of their career path. Never allow an
employer to deviate them from that.

 

[HDvinyl]

Why not just pay per design/layout and use the internet?

Unfortunately, in-house designers are becoming obsolete.

 

[TimToad]

Before any of us dig too deep into supporting or critiquing Farmboy's decision and handling of the situation or ramming the behavior of the outgoing "designer", its important to remind folks that nobody here except for Farmboy knows how this employee was really treated, how well Farmboy manages his company, his demeanor towards his employees, etc..

We don't even know if he is pricing his work appropriately, after all it sounds like he went straight from milking cows one day to successful sign company owner the next. For all any of us know, the outgoing designer may not even been privy to what the jobs were being sold for and was spending what he thought was the right amount of time for the pricepoint he thought they should be sold for. If the employee has more experience than Farmboy himself, he might have known the local market better than Farmboy.

Its obvious that he applied the farming experience he had when employing folks, you give me production, I give you green stuff and only green stuff. You all can get the gist by replacinbg the milk and hay for sign labor and money only, zero other benefits were offered. We can see that Farmboy doesn't seem to think fringe benefits of any kind are suitable to both attract and retain quality help, whether this particular employee was quality or not.

 

[Farmboy]

Rick...you're dead on and I admit it. I do suck as an employer, very good chance I'm the King of sucky employers. I was like that in the service too, I had people under me that I could delegate to and still did things myself. I know I can't design my way outta a paper bag and am just in awe of some of the work I see here. What keep's me in business, people seem to really like us and the work we do in a timely fashion without raping them. You and others have raised a lot of good points.

 

[Gino]

Before any of us dig too deep into supporting or critiquing Farmboy's decision and handling of the situation or ramming the behavior of the outgoing "designer", its important to remind folks that nobody here except for Farmboy knows how this employee was really treated, how well Farmboy manages his company, his demeanor towards his employees, etc..

We don't even know if he is pricing his work appropriately, after all it sounds like he went straight from milking cows one day to successful sign company owner the next. For all any of us know, the outgoing designer may not even been privy to what the jobs were being sold for and was spending what he thought was the right amount of time for the pricepoint he thought they should be sold for. If the employee has more experience than Farmboy himself, he might have known the local market better than Farmboy.

Its obvious that he applied the farming experience he had when employing folks, you give me production, I give you green stuff and only green stuff. You all can get the gist by replacinbg the milk and hay for sign labor and money only, zero other benefits were offered. We can see that Farmboy doesn't seem to think fringe benefits of any kind are suitable to both attract and retain quality help, whether this particular employee was quality or not.

Well, I think if we used your reasoning, there'd be no need to respond to Farmboy about anything, let alone any other threads. Without living in his shoes and/or going by his recollection of the circumstances, we never have anything we can really use to form a 100% perfect answer. I believe this way, you get quite a wide cross-section of views, ideas, and remedies from people around the world to like and similar situations. Farmboy is the one who has to read between the lines, sort out the poppycock from real worth-while input. To know all the details you describe, no one has any business at all.... answering diddly on this or any other forum.

He told us of having 7 employees before...... and now, with a sleepyhead for one employee, a neurotic one for a designer and the third being his future wife.... how much in the way of benefits do they need or deserve ?? Perhaps, the other 7 had full benefits and were bringing in a lot more money, maybe they weren't. As you said, we don't know ALL the pertinent details, but even if we did, it's his business and his decision. I don't see where jumping the gun or conclusions can be misunderstood as bad ramming of information anywhere.

Sorry, but it's just not healthy to play both sides of the fence and then still give insight using your own observation. That's all anyone else is doing. It's just a matter to agree not to agree.