CET issues all over again - what do I do - am I crazy? Horrible print quality?

[In Print]

We had a Gen4 CET with many issues. After 1.5 years of issues and arguing the machine was replaced with a Gen5. I had to fight and eventually just sent a PO to upgrade it to be comparable speed to my old Gen4. You would think they replace you with comparable but no. They told me to run it faster and the timing will be same, problem was on solid colors, banding....
As well it is a much rougher print. They claim to get G7 color, on smaller prints you will notice a grainyness and I want better and smoother I need a custom profile and they will chip in with me to build it. Didnt need any of this for my Gen 4. The files printed better on my Gen4 . Coming to a head as I am having returned orders! See attached photo from a clean file. No way it should be so grainy on a well calibrated machine. (and its a re-order so the file is good)

Wondering what others who have a Gen5 have to say.
(Also we just found out the hard way - there is no backup ink vacuum motor like the old machine. seems they just realized their oversight but the more that push them,quicker it MIGHT get fixed)

 

[ExecuPrintGS]

Is this the true flatbed or the hybrid?
What print settings are you running when you ran the above image?
What material is that printed on?

We just got our q500 Hybrid in december and havent had much for issues, we can print fine print down to about 5pt. with no issues.

 

[In Print]

We have a true flatbed and we didnt have this issue with our old machine.
600x900 running .33 screen and 1.0x on magnetic vinyl.
Are you running Gen 5 heads or Gen 4?

 

[ExecuPrintGS]

we have the gen 5 print heads.
If you wanted to send us the file i can see how it prints on our end.
May not do anything but confirm it is a hardware issue.

Let me know.

 

[In Print]

we have the gen 5 print heads.
If you wanted to send us the file i can see how it prints on our end.
May not do anything but confirm it is a hardware issue.

Let me know.

Sure - I have a file with a few different problem prints from the last couple of days.
I am having someone run it on Gen4 as well.
where should I send it? you can PM me your address.

 

[In Print]

Here is another print from this morning. should be a solid yellow. but to the naked eye the coloring is seen.

 

[ChrisN]

I am going to be watching this thread because we are looking into a new flatbed, and CET is one of the top printers on my list.

It looks to me like a profile issue. Is there any way you can print with color management off?

 

[In Print]

Chris, Actually I dont know but CET hasn't suggested that. They say it is profile as well. but according to them my files would work in Atlanta because they made a perfect profile.
I guess the CET was made to run only under circumstances that mimic their office. Funny we didnt have that on our Gen 4.

 

[davecich]

Disappointed

Gavriel,

i am disappointed you took our discussion public, but it may help. This will be my only post on this subject. I will actually not have access for a couple of weeks.

As I expliained, you need a profile. Second, you have the printer in a warehouse with less than 20% humidity, even though you agreed to keep it at 40 % minimum.

To improve your color and smoothness, you need to:

1- buy an eye-1 and linearize the g7 profiles we gave you. Profiles can drift very quickly at this time of the year.

2- build your own profiles on site, or pay someone to do it.

3- get your humidity up to at least 40% or preferably 60%. Most of your prints are business card size refrigerated magnets that you want 2/3/4 point fonts on. When humidity is low, static will build. When it does, the dots will not fire accurately.

Also, your machine has a backup to it, I will send photo since you don't have white.

I wish you the best gavriel, but you need to help me help you. Posting in public does not change the underlying issues. I think based on the feedback already you can see.

I build a great printer I stand behind. I want you to print better, but I need help.

Dave

ps. If you look at the pictures, you can see dots deflected all over the place from static.

 

[Rydaddy]

Maybe...

I read through this real quick, so if this was mentioned I apologize. Is it a calibration issue? Weather Uni or Bi are the dots from each pass going back on top of the previous dots? When we see this (we only have roll-fed) it's often a calibration issue. I fully respect that in this case it may not be... but thought I would throw that out there.

 

[In Print]

Dave I took this public when i wasnt getting anywhere. trying to get help I couldnt get elsewhere.
We have raised humidity in past and it did not help. We printed on the Gen4 in these conditions and we had no issue. we had the issue the day it was installed and the day before in the same weather the Gen4 didnt have the issue.
I sent the file off to another member who had the same results on his Gen 5.
Its not static as we pretreat for static and its an even uniform pattern. the issue on that circle was the center yellow not the text.
We have this problem not on just business card size but on all sizes. We have yet to get a smooth edge. Even unidirectionally. We tried that to see if maybe we hadnt calibrated perfectly but no go.
I wish I didn't have to go public to get somewhere. I tried to be very nice but I got walked on. I wanted a broader sample of actual results from people printing in real world conditions.
We print many sizes and we have this problem on 6" round and 4x6 ovals. I sent you a 4x6 oval that was printed on both Gen4 and Gen5 and the closer to 16pt text was fuzzy all around the edges on the Gen 5 print.

I came here looking for a suggestion and to see if there was anything to try or to get someone to corroborate my findings as I was getting pushed off with the same answer by you. I have sent you numerous prints and numerous files over the past few months and was told you are looking into it. I never received a printed file from atlanta conditions showing me different. So where else should I turn?

I am sorry that you dont like that but what can I do when I have no other avenue. I need to figure this out before my customers all leave.

 

[davecich]

Gavriel,

i am sorry I can't help you then. If you want to improve your quality, please follow my suggestions. It will get you what you want and need.

Like I offered before, I will even split the cost of someone to come in and write custom professional profiles. At humidity less than 20% it will be a waste of time I am afraid though.

I was hoping if you heard it from someone other than me it would help. I still hope that.

Dave

Dave I took this public when i wasnt getting anywhere. trying to get help I couldnt get elsewhere.
We have raised humidity in past and it did not help. We printed on the Gen4 in these conditions and we had no issue. we had the issue the day it was installed and the day before in the same weather the Gen4 didnt have the issue.
I sent the file off to another member who had the same results on his Gen 5.
Its not static as we pretreat for static and its an even uniform pattern. the issue on that circle was the center yellow not the text.
We have this problem not on just business card size but on all sizes. We have yet to get a smooth edge. Even unidirectionally. We tried that to see if maybe we hadnt calibrated perfectly but no go.
I wish I didn't have to go public to get somewhere. I tried to be very nice but I got walked on. I wanted a broader sample of actual results from people printing in real world conditions.
We print many sizes and we have this problem on 6" round and 4x6 ovals. I sent you a 4x6 oval that was printed on both Gen4 and Gen5 and the closer to 16pt text was fuzzy all around the edges on the Gen 5 print.

I came here looking for a suggestion and to see if there was anything to try or to get someone to corroborate my findings as I was getting pushed off with the same answer by you. I have sent you numerous prints and numerous files over the past few months and was told you are looking into it. I never received a printed file from atlanta conditions showing me different. So where else should I turn?

I am sorry that you dont like that but what can I do when I have no other avenue. I need to figure this out before my customers all leave.

 

[In Print]

One suggestion may have helped

Gavriel,

i am sorry I can't help you then. If you want to improve your quality, please follow my suggestions. It will get you what you want and need.

Like I offered before, I will even split the cost of someone to come in and write custom professional profiles. At humidity less than 20% it will be a waste of time I am afraid though.

I was hoping if you heard it from someone other than me it would help. I still hope that.

Dave

The person who printed these from this post had a slightly better result. Still had the visible grainyness but not as bad. Seems like on a gradient if you bump it up to .5x it helps a drop?
Dont think this is a long term solution but it might help us get going a drop.

Dave, why did our gen4 have no issues like this in same condition? I tried the humidifier like you asked and it didnt do anything for us.

 

[davecich]

I will try and answer your question in a different way Gavriel.

when we build the algorithm to lay down the dots, the key is to place the dots side by side. When static enters the equation, the charge deflects the dot. When it deflects the dot, the dots do not land where they are suppose to. When they land on top of each other, where they are not suppose to, they are too big and leave too much white space around them leading to a grainy look.

The humidifier you had did not help because my technicians didn't raise humidity to 40+%.

why is gen 5 different than gen 4? Because the head is twice as wide and generates more static.

Why is .5 slightly better? You are printing less passes, generating less static, which you magnet will hold.

If you go to Rico's web site, you can see the specs for the two head, as well as the old gen 3 used in the current fb500 and 700.

why do you need custom profiles? Every uv print head has a slightly differentrecommended temperature, voltage, and pulse/firing rate. Profiles are also effected by temperature and humidity, as it changes the size of the dot.

Finally, even if you paid someone to write a profile on site for you, you will still need to linearize it when he seasons change.

Thanks for listening. I am over far north Canada and will lose Internet on the plain.
PICK want to help, and suggest you work with Jim in my absence and I will Skype when I can.

 

[In Print]

I will try and answer your question in a different way Gavriel.

when we build the algorithm to lay down the dots, the key is to place the dots side by side. When static enters the equation, the charge deflects the dot. When it deflects the dot, the dots do not land where they are suppose to. When they land on top of each other, where they are not suppose to, they are too big and leave too much white space around them leading to a grainy look.

The humidifier you had did not help because my technicians didn't raise humidity to 40+%.

why is gen 5 different than gen 4? Because the head is twice as wide and generates more static.

Why is .5 slightly better? You are printing less passes, generating less static, which you magnet will hold.

If you go to Rico's web site, you can see the specs for the two head, as well as the old gen 3 used in the current fb500 and 700.

why do you need custom profiles? Every uv print head has a slightly differentrecommended temperature, voltage, and pulse/firing rate. Profiles are also effected by temperature and humidity, as it changes the size of the dot.

Finally, even if you paid someone to write a profile on site for you, you will still need to linearize it when he seasons change.

Thanks for listening. I am over far north Canada and will lose Internet on the plain.
PICK want to help, and suggest you work with Jim in my absence and I will Skype when I can.

That actually does make a little sense. That was why I kept asking why Gen4 was different. This was the first explanation.
Went to test it out on the Gen4 and it seems the fixed dot printed smoother than variable. Is there a fixed dot profile on the Gen5?

Thank you

 

[jkline]

You happy with your CET

Is this the true flatbed or the hybrid?
What print settings are you running when you ran the above image?
What material is that printed on?

We just got our q500 Hybrid in december and havent had much for issues, we can print fine print down to about 5pt. with no issues.

Looking at a CETQ5 Series 4x8 flatbed. Are you happy with it? Pros/Cons?

 

[ExecuPrintGS]

Looking at a CETQ5 Series 4x8 flatbed. Are you happy with it? Pros/Cons?

I like it, at times i wish we got the true flatbed instead of the hybrid.
My only real gripe is with how fussy the print heads are. Any change in climate and you have to make a bunch of adjustments to get the heads firing nice again.
The white head is also a pain in the ***, We print a white square with setup every single day at the beginning and end of the day and we still have issues with the white head.
Besides that, from a production standpoint its awesome.

 

[Tom Dalton]

From Gavriel at CET:

...build your own profiles on site, or pay someone to do it.

We just got an $180k CET flatbed. It has only ONE material profile called "VINYL". Our old gerber CAT-UV had about 20+ material profiles (eg: coroplast, vinyl, plex, magnetic) and about 6 pre-designed print modes (eg: quality 1, quality 2, Production 1, Production 2 etc). So, you picked the print mode and material profile and it was all set-up.

The CET web site indicates that they offer many (or at least more than one) material profiles. They say the issue making profiles is because there are too many machine variations (head configurations/ Lamp types) and they are kind of flippant with their response (I was told, "if you have a problem with the claims on the site, contact your sales rep"). Well, my sales rep at Advantage Sign Supply has nothing to do with the information posted at cetcolor.com so I'm not sure why they deflect simple questions like that and/or tell the others "make your own profiles" when they claim to have some variety of them included with the printer (*see attached image).

The installer felt like CET skimped on profiles for liability reasons. Like, we'd go after them if the profile didn't produce accurate color results. I feel like not-offering them is a liability. I don't care if the profiles make reproducing colors 100% accurate. I just want a closer starting point. Also, from my understanding material profiles can be about more than just color accuracy. They could also change settings to help promote adhesion... like one could set a slower carriage speed for materials that benefit from slightly longer UV cure times. I know profiles are time consuming and expensive to make, so why put that burden on all of your potential customers?

 

[nate]

I'd be asking your RIP provider as opposed to CET. See what they have to say.

However, that being said, building your own profiles is quite simple to get something out 90% of the time... You can get that number up with experience. If you own Caldera I'd get a TotalColor machine and go from there.

From Gavriel at CET:


We just got an $180k CET flatbed. It has only ONE material profile called "VINYL". Our old gerber CAT-UV had about 20+ material profiles (eg: coroplast, vinyl, plex, magnetic) and about 6 pre-designed print modes (eg: quality 1, quality 2, Production 1, Production 2 etc). So, you picked the print mode and material profile and it was all set-up.

The CET web site indicates that they offer many (or at least more than one) material profiles. They say the issue making profiles is because there are too many machine variations (head configurations/ Lamp types) and they are kind of flippant with their response (I was told, "if you have a problem with the claims on the site, contact your sales rep"). Well, my sales rep at Advantage Sign Supply has nothing to do with the information posted at cetcolor.com so I'm not sure why they deflect simple questions like that and/or tell the others "make your own profiles" when they claim to have some variety of them included with the printer (*see attached image).

The installer felt like CET skimped on profiles for liability reasons. Like, we'd go after them if the profile didn't produce accurate color results. I feel like not-offering them is a liability. I don't care if the profiles make reproducing colors 100% accurate. I just want a closer starting point. Also, from my understanding material profiles can be about more than just color accuracy. They could also change settings to help promote adhesion... like one could set a slower carriage speed for materials that benefit from slightly longer UV cure times. I know profiles are time consuming and expensive to make, so why put that burden on all of your potential customers?

 

[nate]

We're very pleased with our Q5, but I'd caution you to get the 5x10 if at all possible. We went in thinking we'd do the 4x8 and I'm glad we did the 5x10.

Looking at a CETQ5 Series 4x8 flatbed. Are you happy with it? Pros/Cons?

 

[Tom Dalton]

I'd be asking your RIP provider as opposed to CET. See what they have to say.

ONYX makes media profiles for CET printers!? They didn't provide them for our previous flatbed (that also used ONYX). I wouldn't think they'd make profiles for any specific machine. That isn't their job. They'd have to own a version of every machine on the market for testing. I figured that getting the CET would be like our experience with the Gerber CAT-UV. In that case, the service technician installed ONYX and then pulled out a DVD provided by Gerber and imported all of the various media profiles for the flatbed into ONYX. Before he did that, ONYX was bare bones ...generic. CET leaves it bare bones ...generic and tells customers "make your own".

The CET site says "pre-set media settings" (note plural in settings). Ok, where are they? Where is the one for coro? We have jus one and it is for vinyl.