Choke & Spread

[stitchup]

Hi guys

Another plea for help I'm afraid!

I've been asked to produce some labels measuring 5cms x 2.5cms. The labels are quite simple with just a black background with red text and an incrementing number and barcode.

The problem I'm having is the white vinyl showing between the red text and black background. I know I need to use either choke, spread, trapline ??? .. to eradicate this but I'm a little unsure how to do this and what dimension should I use in milimetres.

I know a picture speaks a thousands works, so here is one clearly showing the problem.

Thanks

John

 

[Marlene]

under tools there is choke/spread once you open it you'll see your colors and it will say which prints first. the choke and spread is set but you can change the size of that from the default size

 

[Tim Aucoin]

Select the black box and click the "Overprint on Fills" button.

Select the black & red...
Use Choke/Spread...
Make sure the black is on top in the Color order... if not, drag it to the top.
For that size, I would enter a Choke/Spread amount of no more than .01

Hope this helps!

 

[Fred Weiss]

The red must spread larger under the black. It may be necessary to change the Choke/Spread color order by dragging to achieve the spread instead of the choke. You can also adjust your distance to suit the size of the job once you see the size of the Choke/Spread. Just double click the result in Composer to return to the dialog if changes are needed.

When done, the Print Order dialog should look like this with the red printing first and the black set to overprint.

 

[Tim Aucoin]

Here's a quick video... please forgive the quality... I'm a rookie at uploading video from my phone to youtube!

[video=youtube;7ir6l4qERyU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ir6l4qERyU&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[eahicks]

I would just keep a white outline around the red and not worry about it. Red on black is generally a no-no in my book (unless a very bright red).

 

[Fred Weiss]

I would just keep a white outline around the red and not worry about it. Red on black is generally a no-no in my book (unless a very bright red).

A valid point but overridden by the difficulty of getting the white outline to be even when Edge printing with spot colors at sizes this small.

 

[stitchup]

WoW! Thanks so much to everyone for your replies, explanation and even a video

@eahicks
It's interesting you suggested leaving the white - we did for the same reason you suggested, but, the client thinks it looks 'scruffy' so we hae to do them again. It's no bigee because I didn't plan the white to show through so it present me with a learning curve

Thanks again,

John

 

[scott pagan]

instead of a choke and spread, i would use strokes on the red fill to "spread" under your black. in your strokes menu, select same color as your fill print, select stroke weight (small items like this i use 3pt -large can go much higher), use the "overlap/print" pulldown and choose the 2nd option (has thermometer at medium heat). this will print the stroke in same foil pass as the fill color. if you choose the higher temp option, you will waste foil during printing as it will print fill color 1st, then rewind and print the stroke on 2nd pass and after fact and could lose the registration errors we're trying to fix/cheat. in your view menu, select "show image" and "show overprints" to ensure your strokes are not bleeding out into areas you do not want excess color in.

i find this much simpler to use for color trapping than choke and spread.

 

[Gino]

Man alive, did this thread bring back old memories. We used to use gerber, but was forced to stop, when they dropped the ball with support for us. That was one heck of a program and easy as anything to use. That and ANAgraph. ANAGRAPH was great for everything. I still use it. The scanning abilities are fantastic. It's just on a scary computer which tends to give me the blue screen from time to time.

 

[stitchup]

Not having a whole lot of fun doing this job!

I haven't tried the stroke suggestion yet, this is my experience of using choke/spread.

I hope the pictures show in some sort of meaningful order. Strangely, I can't rid the white substrate peeking through! I must be doing something stupid!

 

[jtiii]

Something I'm not understanding here - looking at the black foil, at the A's in TARIAN, there is a BIG black triangle that should be printed, but your final pic only has a tiny black triangle. Where's all the black?

 

[stitchup]

I am sorry, I think I posted the wrong image showing a printed label from my 1st attempt!

Here is a label printed with the choke as shown in the Omega software setup.

It seems as if the black & red are being pulled off the vinyl, if you know what I mean

I have tried different heat settings and I'm printing at 600 x 300 dpi

 

[signage]

do both the foils have the same amount on them?

I looks like it is a registration problem due o different amounts on foils cartridges

 

[Fred Weiss]

What is the size of the label and what is the height of the text?

What brand of vinyl and foil are you using?

If you will send me a copy of the file to the email in my signature, I may be able to be of more help.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I am sorry, I think I posted the wrong image showing a printed label from my 1st attempt!

Here is a label printed with the choke as shown in the Omega software setup.

It seems as if the black & red are being pulled off the vinyl, if you know what I mean

I have tried different heat settings and I'm printing at 600 x 300 dpi

I doubt that the problems you're having have much to do with heat settings. I have had to change the heat setting on my Edge on only one job in 18 years of use.

 

[scott pagan]

try the stroke method. at that small of size start w about 3pt stroke.

 

[stitchup]

Thanks for the replies, help and suggestions

Firstly, the two foils I'm using have quite a lot of foil left on them, don't know how much - maybe equal.

I purchase my foils from PrintOne UK, (they are not genuine Gerber) http://www.edgefoils.co.uk/

My vinyl - I'm a little unsure - could this be a problem?

I'll send the label file to your email Fred and thanks for taking a look.

Regards

John

 

[Jase]

Hi JOhn, if you want to send it to me I'll have a look, choke and spread should work fine with this.

Hope all is well.

Jason

 

[Fred Weiss]

I have emailed your file back to you with the Choke Spread corrected. At the heart of what was done and to assist in your understanding, a short discussion of sizes and Edge tolerances may help.

The Edge has a design flaw in the way if handles foils. It does not use a capstan drive such as one would find with a tape recorder which would result in a regulated speed based on a linear measurement such as inches per second. Instead it pulls from the supply roll to the take up roll using a constant RPM speed of roller rotation on the take up roll. But because the take up diameter increases in size as more foil is used, the actual amount of foil moving across the print head will change as the foil is used. It isn't much of a change, but it is enough to need to be compensated for ... especially at small sizes when one is printing with more than one color and the colors touch. The error on most Edge printers will be in a range of + or - .02 inches (about .51 mm).

Choke and Spread is a tool that allows one to generate an overlap to compensate for the tolerance error one can expect to have. The amount of choke or spread distance to accomplish the correction should be at least .025 inches and preferably .04 inches (.635 mm to 1.02 mm) In the case of your layout, the letters were fairly small ... .23 inches and .1 inches (5.84 mm and 2.54 mm). The amount of choke/spread you had applied was very small (.003 inches or .076 mm) and was insufficient to correct for the color to color registration error you are seeing when printing.

I have redone the choke/spread at a setting of .025" which should print without the background white showing.

Hope this helps.