Closest topic I could think of.................

[Gino]

I generally do this stuff on the other side, but I know there are some really good minds out here as well that aren't back there and I would appreciate the fastest response, so I'm doing this in the Open Forums, instead.

Alrightie then……………..
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I have one that I haven’t had in a long time.

Gave a quote to a customer about two weeks ago and he signed off, sent me the deposit and copy and I’ve sent him a few layouts. We’ve agreed on everything and he said when he gets his permits back, he’ll give me the go ahead.

He was informed his signs are far over the limit permitted by the borough. I said what ?? We’re not removing a thing. We’re using the same faces over and not changing and structures. He said that they now consider any change of copy the same as a new sign and must now adhere to the new size restrictions/codes. Their front awning is 2’ x 20’ and the electric sign is 4’ x 5’ double-sided and the side-wall panel is 5’ x 10’ That’s a total of 130 square feet. And they are now only allowed 50 square… total.

So, this guy, who happens to have e day gig as a lawyer in a neighboring town, wants me to just make the drawing again and leave off the size dimensions and he’s gonna fill in the sizes himself. His intentions are to measure each and every word, size it and submit about 45 square feet and be under their 50’ requirement.

I don’t see how I can do this and still not be considered part of the problem. We do all the work for the municipal cars, trucks, police for this area and every surrounding area and I’m supposed to know better. However, I don’t understand the borough’s total ability to ignore a ‘Grandfathering’ clause such as this.


Besides the new way of this lawyer’s measuring, what would some of you do ??


Any solutions… I have to have an answer by tomorrow noon.

Gino

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[Circleville Signs]

Are you doing the installation? If so, then no way in hell would I do that.

If not, I'd just send him non-scale drawings with a note in the margins stating drawings not to scale. That's his *** on the line then, not yours.

 

[tsgstl]

Don't be part of the permit process at all. I hate dealing with that stuff anyway. Don't even put your name on the permit, let him do it. If he wants to do it that way then fine. I have customers all the time pull stuff like that. As long as you don't sign off on anything I can't see it hurting you. If the city calls you be honest and let the customer know this is how you are going to handle it.

 

[Gino]

All we're doing is scraping off old vinyl from an electric sign and an awning and then putting new die-cut vinyl in it's place. All off an 8' step ladder. If I do it on the weekend, no one will ever see me.....

 

[gabagoo]

If he is willing to do this then why would he get a permit at all.

I would be more worried after you do it and he possibly gets caught for it, he doesn't come after you...after all, he is a lawyer, and from what he is doing he sounds pretty seedy to me. just sayin...

 

[Gino]

If he is willing to do this then why would he get a permit at all.

I would be more worried after you do it and he possibly gets caught for it, he doesn't come after you...after all, he is a lawyer, and from what he is doing he sounds pretty seedy to me. just sayin...

Very simple. I kinda asked the same thing upfront. The Sign Nazi Police in this borough are quite efficient, besides being strict. They already sent him several pictures of his signs and told him if he was going to use them to submit drawings and apply for permitting and if not, they had to be removed before his opening for business.

 

[gabagoo]

Very simple. I kinda asked the same thing upfront. The Sign Nazi Police in this borough are quite efficient, besides being strict. They already sent him several pictures of his signs and told him if he was going to use them to submit drawings and apply for permitting and if not, they had to be removed before his opening for business.

If thats the case, then thay are already on to him, so why would he want you to change the dimensions? There coming out to look for sure.

Oh to be born a lawyer!!!!

 

[randya]

Replace a letter or two at a time.
Over time no one will know.
And it is not a new sign then, but a series of 'repairs'.

 

[Gino]

Replace a letter or two at a time.
Over time no one will know.
And it is not a new sign then, but a series of 'repairs'.

Interesting.

 

[MikePro]

had this same issue in madison, wi.
best you can hope for, is to apply for a variance. a lot of city planners will grandfather-in signage as long as it is an improvement on the existing.

otherwise, if you let your client try pulling a fast-one, chances are that the final application will be rejected and fined by the city. To which your lawyer client will most likely refuse payment and try to stick you with the fine as well, after you remove the lettering at your own expense (of course).

 

[Billct2]

He's a lawyer, let him sue the town. More than likely the regulations are "illegal", and would be oveturned. Problem is no one ever has the expertise (he does) or guts (does he) to openly challenge these idiotic rules. The USSC may be able to provide some assistance.

 

[John L]

Suck up to the Nazi... hes your man.

 

[2B]

don't hide anything/do on the weekend. Have the customer sign off stating that they have the required permits and you are following his instructions.


if you do want to back door it,

1. since this is a lighted sign, you were cleaning it/maintenance on the internal components and the face was damaged and had to be replaced the only image you have of the sign is the "picture" that the customer provided to you.
2. the sign was vandalized with paintball guns, paint, rocks, WHATEVER you want. you are merely doing repairs and not a new sign

 

[cgsigns_jamie]

I deal with this stuff all the time. Going through a similar situation in a historic district that has a vary strick sign code now.

A business has changed hands and we were contracted to change the name on the windows and blade sign. As a responsible, licensed contractor, we contacted the city to make sure it was okay to change the signs without a permit. No dice. I have to submit a full plan with color samples and I can only use per approved fonts and colors. I also have to adhear to a strict 16sf of TOTAL signage.

Normally this wouldn't be an issue but all the existing signage is way too big, not approved colors, and not approved fonts. So are all the surrounding businesses signs. (this isn't a new sign code either, been the same since the 80's, in fact the only allow painted signs)

So now my quick and easy name change job has been totally $&@&$. The customer doesn't understand or care why I can't just stop by and change the name real quick. But now that I've brought this issue to light and the city knows I'm the contractor doing the work I can't touch this unless I bring all the signs up to code.

My new policy is this... Crazy strict districts that just need a name/face change... I'm not installing it or getting involved in the permit process. I'm simply producing signage, that as far as I know could be installed indoors. I'll let the customer deal with the sign Nazis!

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

That is sad 50 sq ft ... So now when we go vote they should be advertising experts, what a great government it knows everything.

 

[CentralSigns]

If he is going to fill in the sizes to scale. Or will he fill in the sizes to what ever he feels like and leave you with a kerning nightmare or something you can't work with. What ever you do for a Philadelphia Lawyer like him, will have potential to fall in your lap at a latter date. Be careful!! My dad always said Philly lawyers always have a way of standing on their feet as you fall in the rubble. I guess it all has to do with how connected you are.

 

[Gino]

Well, he's a Cuban/Latino lawyer located in Kutztown, PA, doing business in a cupcake store in West Reading. You can't get much more country-bumpkin that that.... at least for the area.

Well, I decided to go into the Police Station in West Reading and none of my contacts were in, but Tracy said she'd have the chief call me when he gets in.

So, I went over to the codes department, down the steps into Stacy's office and proceeded to tell her the story.

Seems, before my friend bought the building, he was notified in writing that NONE of the signs on the building in question had any legal or permitted signs on it. Once he took possession of it, he was to remove them all. Now, this doesn't sound legit to me, but you can't fight city hall... especially when they give you a lota work and they're all standing in front of you. I explained that I knew what was going to happen, but can't say honestly that that is what will happen. She understood my dilemma and I lied a little and said, I don't want to walk away from this and lose money, let alone make some unhappy customers. She totally understood.

Now, here is the lesson for all of you naysayers out there. I did everything by the book, therefore, the borough is going to back me 100%.

When I provided the drawings [to my customer], they had the correct sizes and my name attached to them instructing they were for permitting purposes and now drawn exactly to scale, but within a few inches.

The borough is going to accept his measurements, allow me to put everything up, once I see the permit in person and once they are installed, they will go out and make a site survey. If he's in violation he will be fined $500.00 for each sign and up to three times. That would come to $1,500 a pop times three citations for a total of $4,500. If at that point he does not comply, he will be shut down immediately until his sign violation situation is rectified.... in full.

In this way, I get paid and if he tries to say I did something wrong and lead him astray, they have me on file long before permits were issued making an 'in person' visit and my original drawings with the dates from my files and e-mails to prove I did nothing wrong.


After this, she asked me if I would consider coming in to help right some of the bad codes in their signs codes section. They have one code for 'No Parking' signs. The rule reads, sign cannot exceed 2 square feet and all lettering must be four inches tall. I quickly showed her an example of how that wording is totally not going to work at any level and she said.... Oh-h-h-h-h............... I see. She laughed and I said I'll wait to see the permit.

 

[jfiscus]

Call your buddies in the city municipal departments that you deal with already. They probably know the people in permitting/zoning/etc. Tell them the story & what you'd like to do - then see what they can do for you. Just got through a similar process in a historic district, friends help.

The "informed in writing about all signs having to be removed" is the sketchy part & what everything else hinges on IMHO.


Edit - Oops, just read your last post, seems you have it all taken care of now!

 

[FireSprint.com]

 

[Marlene]

Besides the new way of this lawyer’s measuring, what would some of you do ??

re-do the written quote/contract and add a line item that states that "all city and state permits are customer's responsibility". in our state, a customer can apply for their own sign permit is that the same where you are?