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color profiling lessons
- Thread starter apex
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ddubia
New Member
sjm I, for one, would love to hear you discuss anything. All you do is jump into a valid thread with one-liners that are the teenage equivalent of, "That's stupid." How about we hear a little bit of what you know rather than simply calling other people's knowledge foolish? Really, share your knowledge instead of your negativity. The easiest thing in the world is to be ignorantly negative.
To the OP: I don't have much to contribute to this thread myself. I struggle greatly with accurate color. Luckily, the types of jobs we typically produce do not have to hold to tight color accuracy. I am in the medium pleasure mode regarding my color output. It passes, but I wish I knew more so I'd feel more in control throughout the process.
This has been an excellent thread and I've learned a great deal. Especially eye4clr's overview explanation of ICC profiles and how a RIP manages color.
Boy Howdy! I got a long way to go.
sjm
New Member
There is no hostility, we can discuss host based colour management or RIP based, colour is subjective.
That's the point. I doubt anyone here would have trouble matching to a supplied hard copy supplied. Though I regress colour is a science that can be explained by SWOP?
Anyone can print a file, but what sets you apart is to do it accurately. My experience is that Color Management is no longer a myth and it saves thousands of dollars in costly mistakes. Most businesses should try their best to invest in a spectrophotometer, profiling software and training to create their own ICC profiles. Keep in mind that an ICC profile is a snapshot of a particular printing condition, so unfortunately, those profiles available for download in websites are not the best way to go, but hey, is a good starting point. The goal is to do them yourself, and trust me, the investment is worth every penny.
If you're interested in serious color management, I have a partner that can travel overseas and provide training. I've done a course with him and its 100% no bull, hands on training. Buzz me for more details.
Rooster
New Member
Evidently SJM was afraid we might be thinking he's somewhat of a fool. So he decided to respond and remove all doubt.
sjm
New Member
That was a mistake? The gold fish did you no harm.
Though I can accept I think when you speak colour management you speak of producing predictable colour. That is why I suppose you like put it Host based vs RIP Based?
Of course if colour looks pleasing to you, who cares about different light ambient temperatures, right?
I would be interested in hearing why colours I match to in my shop are pretty close but my client argues otherwise when he views it in his surrounding?
Do you think that stock profile I downloaded and tweaked is at fault? I mean it looked better the un-tweaked profile I downloaded, would you not agree?
Why not AdobeRGB 1998 for RGB? It has a slightly wider gamut that sRGB (towards greens and blues, but its still wider than sRGB).
I use ISOcoated_v2_eci instead of US Web Coated SWOP. As you can see, it has a wider gamut.
Just my 2 cents...
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eye4clr
New Member
Nothing at all wrong with wider gamut working spaces. Thanks goodness we have them available for us to use. I take full advantage of them when I'm working with my fine art clients.
Thing is, they only really work when you have influence over the design process and can choose to create and mainatain files in these spaces. Otherwise, taking in random customer files that are sRGB and (in the US) US Web Coated SWOP, then converting them into Adobe RGB or some other larger gamut working space does nothing but complicate your workflow and give you one more thing that can go wrong.
I generally say that if you're the one creating the files, go for the large gamut working spaces. Just be aware that you'll have to still juggle files from the unwashed masses as sRGB and SWOP.
As I've said here recently a couple of times, the end product differences between these working spaces is often pretty small. Yes, you can see a difference, but it's not usually as big as the gamut maps might lead you to believe.
You have a point here, and this unfortunately is the bread and butter of our business. But at least the ones following this thread are now aware of it.
marcsitkin
New Member
There can be an advantage in converting (not assigning) from a smaller gamut space to a larger, and that is the possibility of increasing saturation to bring more life to an image suffering from dull colors. Modern printers often have color gamuts greater than SWOP Cmyk, and can print more saturated color with a greater dynamic range.
In most cases, it is splitting hairs.
I'm also a big fan of converting most files to Adobe RGB for consistency. Our RIP is set to default to that space for an untagged image, and by manually converting (or assigning, then converting), incidents of having the RIP assign the wrong color space are avoided.
Probably the most important advantage that using a color space such as Adobe RGB is that it has been designed as an editing space, which means that when you make a color change, the change is smooth.
Editing in capture spaces or printer spaces can lead to some rather unexpected results from even small changes.
That said, a good monitor that is well calibrated, and a work environment with controlled lighting and a proper viewing setup is very important.
Color management is a system of inter-dependant parts, and the results you get are reflected from the relation between those parts.
In most cases, it is splitting hairs.
I'm also a big fan of converting most files to Adobe RGB for consistency. Our RIP is set to default to that space for an untagged image, and by manually converting (or assigning, then converting), incidents of having the RIP assign the wrong color space are avoided.
Probably the most important advantage that using a color space such as Adobe RGB is that it has been designed as an editing space, which means that when you make a color change, the change is smooth.
Editing in capture spaces or printer spaces can lead to some rather unexpected results from even small changes.
That said, a good monitor that is well calibrated, and a work environment with controlled lighting and a proper viewing setup is very important.
Color management is a system of inter-dependant parts, and the results you get are reflected from the relation between those parts.
eye4clr
New Member
A perfectly valid method. I call it "funneling" incoming jobs to your preferred working space. You obviously have the where with all to easily handle this. A beginner or someone who's feeling overwhelmed by the color stuff is better off with the more common setup.
A very elegant comment, well said.
In my case, I set them up with Adobe RGB and ISOcoated_v2_eci for CMYK.
I've heard it so many times that my ears are gonna bleed. Its like a software program: minimum requirement is a Pentium 4; recommended Intel Quad Core... If you can run it with the minimum, great, less money for a full-fledged computer. In other words, if my color is coming out great, why spend money on a Quato monitor, 5000K lights, a Just Normlicht or GTI viewing booth, a spectrophotometer, profiling software, training... The debate will go on and on for miles. Just send them a file with a corporate color, and I'll tell you a story.
sjm
New Member
Have you ever considered supplying your printer profile to your clients?
Rooster
New Member
I use AdobeRGB and since the version of wastach rip I use doesn't have the black point compensation feature (another reason I miss colorburst). I will convert my files to the printer profile and let adobe perform the black point compensation if there's any photos that require help with shadow details.
It's a bit of a bitch fix, but it works well.
As for lighting conditions, the only way to really get something that works and you can trust is to take it outside into the sun. After a decade of photographing and reproducing fine art it's the only way to settle any disputes that involve metamerism. If it doesn't match at the client's location and you ask them to take it outside and it does, you can tell them their lighting needs to change. A light bulb is a cheap solution to the problem.
That being said I still use the best (affordable) daylight bulbs in the shop (and neutral wall colors). But after 20 years in the print business I see no need for expensive viewing booths, unless you're tacking one on the end of a multi-million dollar press where it's impractical for the pressman to run outside to check color in the middle of a run.
What really makes our art-repro side perform well is to profile the input side when we're shooting the original. Creating a camera profile for each different lighting condition can be a pain at times, but it really makes matching colors easy when you close the loop and control both ends.
It's a bit of a bitch fix, but it works well.
As for lighting conditions, the only way to really get something that works and you can trust is to take it outside into the sun. After a decade of photographing and reproducing fine art it's the only way to settle any disputes that involve metamerism. If it doesn't match at the client's location and you ask them to take it outside and it does, you can tell them their lighting needs to change. A light bulb is a cheap solution to the problem.
That being said I still use the best (affordable) daylight bulbs in the shop (and neutral wall colors). But after 20 years in the print business I see no need for expensive viewing booths, unless you're tacking one on the end of a multi-million dollar press where it's impractical for the pressman to run outside to check color in the middle of a run.
What really makes our art-repro side perform well is to profile the input side when we're shooting the original. Creating a camera profile for each different lighting condition can be a pain at times, but it really makes matching colors easy when you close the loop and control both ends.
Black Point Compensation has been included since version 6.6. Latest version is 6.7, so do the upgrade whenever you can.
Rooster
New Member
My free upgrades ended @ 6.4 and I'm a little PO'd at Wasatch at the moment. Not a big fan of their customer service.
I may make the move to colorburst if they can support a JV33/Summa T-head combo. I'm making do at the moment since I'm also looking at a flatbed printer and cutter system that may require or come with a different rip.
I may make the move to colorburst if they can support a JV33/Summa T-head combo. I'm making do at the moment since I'm also looking at a flatbed printer and cutter system that may require or come with a different rip.