Color variation problem - Photoshop experts!

[threeputt]

Can anyone think of what might be going on in this scenario:

We've wrapped several vehicles for this client. This last one was picked up and the client calls back 30 minutes later to say the colors are "off". (different from the others)

Our wrap guy jumps in the pickup and runs over there. Sure enough the colors are a bit different, most noticeably in the greens.

I go back and check in PhotoShop all of the files for all the different vehicles we've done for them. The information layer tells me that the greens are all of the same CMYK value.

Now....since I'm no PS whiz, could there be something I "checked" - a box or setting - so that designs I'm doing now are not identical with the others? (with respect to color)

I don't know anything about modes, or channels, etc. Have only basic knowledge of PS. Somehow I get by.

But I'm wondering what if any "settings" could affect color output? Being different from one file to another?

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[John Butto]

greens

Is it the same material as before and the same laminate, the same profile in the RIP etc, if any of these are changed it will affect your output, and if anything was changed your lucky it is just the greens.

 

[ProWraps™]

yeah there are lots of variables. photoshop has its own color profiles as well.

 

[Tony Teveris]

When you saved your image from PS did you save it's color profile within the image file (embed the image's source profile). I would think it is an issue with the RIP and what you selected for "source", and "output" profiles and any other switches.

For a test create a color swatch in PS with your color and process it through the RIP, whats it look like, you could do the same with a previous images.

 

[threeputt]

Come to think of it, I did use 3951RA on the first three vehicles and 3551 on this last one. (because the curves of the sheetmetal were pretty mild) Could that be it?

If so, how does one handle color variances due to media differences?

 

[Tony Teveris]

It's called "profiling". Each material, inks, halftone, etc creates it's own "profile". Shame on you for using a different material and the same profile.

 

[ProWraps™]

bad move switching media mid job. no matter what you start with, finish with it. you cut corners to save money on the media, and it bit you in the end. never switch media. 3951 and 3551 are vastly different, and will absorb the ink different. lending to a different tones of the same color. never switch lams either. they will color shift on you. chalk it up, lesson learned.

 

[threeputt]

Thanks guys, I'm learning.

But what I think I'm hearing you all say is that there's no way to match up colors when going from media to media. Right?

But if that is so, then how would a guy handle this: The client has several vehicles wrapped (3951RA) then says "hey make me a sign for the side of my building?" So you go and use 3651 because you're putting it down on DiBond. No need for the expensive sh*t there, I wouldn't think.

But then the colors would all be off. There's got to be a way. How?

 

[threeputt]

It's called "profiling". Each material, inks, halftone, etc creates it's own "profile". Shame on you for using a different material and the same profile.

Now I'm really confused. I did select the proper media profile in my RIP program before proceeding with the printing. Same thing when I used the 3551. I re-selected the profile in the RIP for that media use. Shouldn't that have corrected things? So the colors would be the same regardless of the media?

I'm a dummy. Please explain, if you will kindly.

 

[cptcorn]

Thanks guys, I'm learning.

But what I think I'm hearing you all say is that there's no way to match up colors when going from media to media. Right?

But if that is so, then how would a guy handle this: The client has several vehicles wrapped (3951RA) then says "hey make me a sign for the side of my building?" So you go and use 3651 because you're putting it down on DiBond. No need for the expensive sh*t there, I wouldn't think.

But then the colors would all be off. There's got to be a way. How?

No there is only one way. Creating your own profiles for each of the media you use. And re-linearize-ing them often!

Even if you use the same media for every job, temp, humidy, just standard weather will change the way your printer prints.

3651 is the wrong application for a long term sign on a building regardless if its on dibond. Cheap vs "expsnesive" materials... 4x8 sign... cheap materials costs you maybe $25-35 in vinyl, and maybe $60-$75 for high performance. ... You have the same amount of work into each.... now justify the price... that gap in price is your insurance, not the customers'.

 

[ProWraps™]

oh there is a way. and the equation looks something like this:
time saved spent on profile creation and testing - cost of more expensive materials = your answer

even for signs in the sun, i would still use the higher performance cast. the difference is nominal. if your client wants everything to match, well then just consider it a cost of that benefit and bill accordingly. then ask yourself what is it worth to you in cost of an unsastisfied customer? as a programmer we are tought to code to the lowest common denominator. in this case, spec your material to the highest common denominator and bill accordingly. tell your client if he wants everything to match, that benefit, will cost him X amount. problem solved. you dont have to redo stuff, the client gets what he wants, and should pay for it.

 

[threeputt]

So then...do most of you guys use 3951RA cast to make flat signs? If the color of the logo needs to match a wrap you may have done for them?

That media is about $520.00 per roll versus $200.00 per roll for 3651. And...it requires the cast laminate, also about $500.00 per roll. Not to mention the time spent switching out the laminate. (re-webbing the laminator)

There's no other way? (I don't know squat about creating and testing my own profiles)

By far most of our work is flat signs. So we really tear through the 3651 with the 210 lam.

 

[cptcorn]

So then...do most of you guys use 3951RA cast to make flat signs? If the color of the logo needs to match a wrap you may have done for them?

That media is about $520.00 per roll versus $200.00 per roll for 3651. And...it requires the cast laminate, also about $500.00 per roll. Not to mention the time spent switching out the laminate. (re-webbing the laminator)

There's no other way? (I don't know squat about creating and testing my own profiles)

By far most of our work is flat signs. So we really tear through the 3651 with the 210 lam.

If it's going outside or seeing weather... definitely a cast material, 3951 or IJ180....

The -only- ways to get it to match are, profiling your media... or continually printing proofs until they look the same... one is the right way, the other is the foolish way, take your pick!

Regardless of the type of material, the work amount is the same. So, finished price (pulling a number out of my ass) $10/sq ft... So that's $6750 in potential sales (not figuring in laminate)... So now if you switch to calendared its 40 cents a square cheaper or $6480. Granted your margins are higher on 3651 in this sense. In the long run, your shorting yourself though, since you're putting an inferior product out there.

This cheap vs expensive material stuff is ridiculous, its the same amount of work to make a 4x8 sign (example) in calendared or cast...

 

[Checkers]

Software, hardware, media, laminate and inks all need to be profiled and maintained.

Making things even more challenging is even if you use the same media, laminate, ink, etc. you can still get color shifts going from batch to batch. So, the media you're printing today can look slightly different than what you printed last week.

Developing and maintaining a color management system and building custom profiles will eliminate the headaches in 99.9% of the jobs. But, no system is perfect and that 0.1% will drive you crazy! Guess how I know

Checkers

 

[AKWD]

You should look into getting a color-managed workspace (IE:- profiling). It's gonna save you a lot of heartaches in the long run.

Really though, as a sign maker, the profiling isn't near as bad as a paper print shop -- Print shops could have upwards of 40-60 types of paper, all with its own way of handling ink and its own coloring. Digital vinyl print, you're looking at far less media.

 

[cdiesel]

While it's true each media will print differently, the difference between 3551 and 3951 would be minimal, and probably nearly unnoticeable. You've probably got a profile switch either in the RIP or the color settings of Photoshop.
I assume you're outputting to .tif files? If so, open each of the final print files in Photoshop and go to Edit/Assign Profile. See what they each say (We use Adobe RGB 1998). If the embedded profiles don't match, the prints won't match. Also, you have to save the file out with the profile..

Here is what we do to ensure consistency between jobs for the same customer. Let's say you have a new vehicle to wrap. Instead of creating a new file and starting from scratch, an easy way to ensure all of the settings are the same, open the previous vehicle file and Save As a new file name. Delete any uneeded layers and start designing the new wrap. This keeps all the previous settings intact.

 

[threeputt]

Also, you have to save the file out with the profile..

Exactly how does one do that? When you save as .tif (as I do) doesn't the software automatically save the profile along with it?