Conflicting Advice to Newbies

[VolunteerSign]

I started out with a desire and absolutely zero knowledge. Fortunately there were a couple "old sign PAINTERS" that didn't mind sharing knowledge with a kid. I soon learned the difference between a one stroke brush and a pounce wheel and I was off and running. I can still remember sitting for hours helping a real sign painter put one stroke letters on Coke banners and hand lettering auction signs. Experience like that can't be bought...and I still consider myself very lucky to have had the opportunity to work with some "old timers" back when they were not "old timers"

 

[Brad Knight]

I know I'm new around here - and only really been making any kind of signs for the last year or so... but I'll toss my opinion in here nonetheless.

I look at it from a little different point of view. Even though I'm still on the new side when it comes to the sign business, I'm certainly not new to the business of life, and this isn't my first business venture.

See, I'm a computer geek by nature. I spent many, many years with my head stuck in boxes of chips and cards and wires and trying to make them do what I wanted them to do. I was good at it - probably as good, if not better - at THAT as some of these old sign makers are at making signs. (Uncle Sam taught me the basics at least) Really, I had never met a computer that I couldn't fix - one way or another. I could fix, build, design, network... I could make them look cool with lights, customizations; I built computers with radiators hanging off the back of them because they were so darn fast...

... so I decided to start my own computer shop.

What I learned over the next year is that there is a huge difference between fixing/building computers and running a computer shop. I'm 100% convinced that someone who doesn't know the difference between an IP address and a MAC address could run a successful computer business, but knowing how to fix computers doesn't mean you have the skills to run a business.

It's the same here. I'm really trying to concentrate on building my BUSINESS - with that, I've taught myself how to run my CNC machine - being a computer geek (and knowing a LOT about motion control systems, etc... which I taught myself BTW) running the CNC came pretty easy. Making signs on the CNC is another story. I'm still learning - I'm a numbers guy, so the design part isn't my strong point, but I'm getting better. Luckily, I can run Corel - I've spent a LOT of time in Photoshop - I've learned (a lot from forums not unlike this one) the differences between Vector art and Bitmap art and where each one has a place.

I do kinda agree with the OP - and it's not just the attitude here. I browse a lot of different forums (my 'day job' gives me a lot of rear-end time), and people are ALWAY offering laundry lists of things to do before going into business for yourself...

... my advice is to just do it.

I never knew how much of an idiot I was the first time I started my own business until I started my own business. You will never learn as much from a class room or internet forums as you will stepping out and making a fool of yourself and losing a crap load of money. But you will learn.

There is a LOT of good people on these forums around the web that will give you good advice and not just run everyone because you want what they have. There is a LOT of people out here that have been EXACTLY where you are now and want to pull others up.

Once you put yourself out there - and that's my biggest piece of advice - there are a lot of people who will help you make signs AND run a successful business. You might fall on your nose - but you'll learn what to do next time.

(Now, that said – I did read the other post [and if we’re talking about the same post… the coolmist dude?] He did strike me as someone who didn’t want to get into the wrapping business as much as he was someone who was trying to simply do a DIY install, so I don’t completely disagree with hammering him… but who knows… maybe he is trying and just isn’t that bright? I could have answered his question and I’ve just watched a bunch of wrapping videos on Youtube… )

 

[Circleville Signs]

The biggest reason that 90% of the time I tell newbies to go work for someone before they start out on their own isn't just so they can learn about the sign trade. The biggest reason is so that they can even decide if they LOVE the sign trade - because I'm here to tell you - if you don't love this business, then you have NO business being in it as an owner.

I've had employees in the past who, when I hired them, I was fairly certain that they eventually wanted to be out on their own. More than half of them, within 6 months, said things to me like "There's no way I could run a business like this", or "How the hell do you wear all those hats", etc.

Learning how to design things is important. Learning how to make what you design is even more important - but the MOST important thing is learning whether or not you are even CAPABLE of running a business.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

The biggest reason is so that they can even decide if they LOVE the sign trade - because I'm here to tell you - if you don't love this business, then you have NO business being in it as an owner.

That's true no matter what business that you are running. You have to love it, because no one else is going to have that passion to keep the business going.

 

[Joe Diaz]

The biggest reason that 90% of the time I tell newbies to go work for someone before they start out on their own isn't just so they can learn about the sign trade. The biggest reason is so that they can even decide if they LOVE the sign trade - because I'm here to tell you - if you don't love this business, then you have NO business being in it as an owner.

I've had employees in the past who, when I hired them, I was fairly certain that they eventually wanted to be out on their own. More than half of them, within 6 months, said things to me like "There's no way I could run a business like this", or "How the hell do you wear all those hats", etc.

Learning how to design things is important. Learning how to make what you design is even more important - but the MOST important thing is learning whether or not you are even CAPABLE of running a business.

Even if they don't love this type of work, I would bet many don't have what it takes to own their own business. And one of the most valuable lessons someone can learn working for someone else, is that it's no easy feat to being a business owner, especially in the sign industry. I would imagine a large majority of people who start their own sign shop from scratch end in failure. So knowing that the advice is most likely good.

I know when I've given the advice to work for someone else, it isn't necessarily followed by "so you can learn everything you can before quitting to start your own thing", because I'm assuming most will learn that there are some real benefits of being employee, or working your way up and perhaps becoming a partner. But even if they do eventually go their separate way they leave that other shop as a well educated and more experienced sign maker. In my opinion filling this industry with more experienced sign makers instead of crud load of inexperienced start-ups is good for our industry as a whole.

 

[Brad Knight]

I'm assuming most will learn that there are some real benefits of being employee, or working your way up and perhaps becoming a partner. But even if they do eventually go their separate way they leave that other shop as a well educated and more experienced sign maker. In my opinion filling this industry with more experienced sign makers instead of crud load of inexperienced start-ups is good for our industry as a whole.

That's assuming that they're not working for someone who doesn't know their vectors from their bitmaps - or -as you put it - you're not working for the CRUD.
The simple fact is that, no matter what industry you're in - most startups are going to go bust. I know - I was one. I was a GREAT computer guy that couldn't hack it as computer shop owner. But, I survived. I learned. I'm making another run at running my own business. I'm learning... still.
You might have been that lucky one, but there really isn't what I would call an 'experienced sign maker' within 100 miles from me. No one around to partner with. There are a lot of people who can run a vinyl cutter - but I am probably the most experienced person that I know of in the area at cutting dimensional signs. I'm also the most experienced at making custom ADA signs - and I'm still trying to get that down. (No one in 100 miles is doing it)
The point is that you're not going to know the head ache of hiring anyone until you try and get your tax ID, get workman's comp insurance, withholding crap... you're just not going to know until you have to face it.
I'll give you an example. Right now, I do everything from selling the client, site surveys, design, engineering, programing, cutting, (the Boss aka my wife does the painting), installation, support, troubleshooting. I do the marketing, I do the facebook page, I do the bids, I buy all the materials, and find all the equipment... AND I do it all from my head. NOW, I also KNOW that in order to go from a guy who can make a CNC machine sing, to a guy who runs a successful sign business, I have to get all of that out of my HEAD and onto PAPER.
If you go to work for someone else, you're always copying off of their paper.
That, to me anyway, is the JOY of starting your own business from scratch. You get to set the rules... you get to set the standards... you get to write your own rule book... The rulebook will BE your business. The standards will BE your business.
I know that - these forums like this are for technical info, really...

 

[Joe Diaz]

No one said there aren't exceptions to the rule. But the point behind my comment is that there is a huge amount of start-ups out there. One might even say a "CRUD load"

Even if a percentage of those start-ups are worth there weight in gold, the simple truth is that most of these start-ups can't compete with the experience and in a lot of cases the quality of a sign shop that has been at it longer. In those cases they find themselves competing with price. If you multiply that by all the shops that do this, it brings down the value of what we all do for a living, making it harder for everyone. And that is what I meant by "good for our industry as a whole" in my earlier comment.

Now some start-ups may claim that they are better than the shop down the road that has been in business longer, and they just might be that exception to the rule. But I would imagine the sign shop that has been around for 5+, 10+, 20+ etc... is doing something right, and I would imagine a shop that has been in business for long enough doesn't compete with the prices of it's competition, because that rarely works in an industry that provides a custom craft.

Now if someone is start-up and are the exception to the rule, then there is no disrespect from me. Our shop started that way, so I know it's possible and I've seen first hand the hard work it takes to be successful. But I also have seen a lot of shops come and go, and I know a lot of folks just don't have what it takes to run their own business, and that is why it's good advice to tell someone to get their feet wet by working for someone else first. There is no harm in that.

 

[Brad Knight]

You’re right – and , IMHO, the newer guys not being on the same level as the experienced guys probably has more to do with business experience than sign experience. How to treat customers, how to treat employees, how to establish policies and procedures, how to make sure your taxes are paid, how to pay a REALLY GOOD ACCOUNTANT – and a lawyer that has questionable morals… HAHA…

None of that is sign industry specific, but it will make or break a business.

I mean, really – a smart guy could learn to run a CNC, run a vinyl printer, laminator, cutter in no time. You can wrap your own car/truck – your wife’s – screw it up and re-do it. You can learn the basics behind channel letters, and sub that out – learn ADA laws, sub out those… The BASICS so making signs aren’t all that hard. Learn the basics of interior signage, exterior signage, how to print & cut – contract with a good electrician – make contact with reliable suppliers… there’s not a LOT of sign specific stuff that you have to become an expert at… and really – how many people here are experts in ALL aspects of sign making… and sub out the rest?

I mean, I found my way here because I’m looking at getting into the vinyl side – and this site leans heavily on the vinyl side!! There isn’t a lot going on in the CNC dimensional side here… but go to the Shopbot site, and Camhead site and there are a lot of sign makers there, but none using a printer – maybe a plotter to cut paint mask. The point is, the ‘sign business’ is a pretty wide term in itself.

Did I mention that the design part (for me) is part you have to be born to – regardless of what you do?

Still - you are right, it takes different strokes. I might be the exception – able to teach myself different aspects – diversify myself… but I do think that, startups learning – offering cheaper prices and creating downward pricing pressure on the more experienced guys is probably a good thing for the consumers… and in the long run for everyone because the old guys will have to be better and more efficient. The new guys will eventually become the old guys – the old guys will adapt, evolve or go away… then new ‘new guys’ will come up. Most will fail – some won’t -

… that is the nature of business and capitalism, and that’s not sign specific either.

And the VAST majority of people have no business running a business regardless. I sometime wonder if I do???

But you'll never know until you jump in!!

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

I mean, I found my way here because I’m looking at getting into the vinyl side – and this site leans heavily on the vinyl side!! There isn’t a lot going on in the CNC dimensional side here… but go to the Shopbot site, and Camhead site and there are a lot of sign makers there, but none using a printer – maybe a plotter to cut paint mask. The point is, the ‘sign business’ is a pretty wide term in itself.

Did I mention that the design part (for me) is part you have to be born to – regardless of what you do?

Ya, sign business is a damn wide term. I tihnk a plotter is definitly a corner stone in the shop. It's cheap, it doesn't go to lunch, doesn't complain the temperature is too hot or cold, doesn't take sick days, and remembers how to do things it did months/years ago. This isn't like a smite against a hand painter, or degrading work, when you have bills ot pay, let the machine help. Heck! How about two? There were times I wish I had 3 plotters going in PA. While it's cutting out vinyl for 5 or 6 jobs on a gang run, go prep boards, paint a truck, clean up stock, screen stuff, whatever! you can get a plotter with software for under 2k and it's quality now. That's cheaper then an empty tool box, and it's garenteed to increase your work flow. Plus, it's useable for multiple things. Stub guides, paint mask, sand blasting stencil, the pen and paper I used often. Gave me a good idea for some of the more complex applications I had to do. Even helps shaping signs. I had a bunch of junk 341 Oracal and low tack r tape and would lay it on HDU board to shape 2-3ft letters for store fronts. It's a good start for any new shop because it can lead into screen printing, digital, sandblasting/router, name it. There is a way that a plotter would come in handy to have.

Design, yea. I had someone come to work with me that was a "graphic designer" 4 year. couldn't make ****. I've got no formal training and was kickin' *** at layouts.