We print a lot of decals, banners, cut vinyl signs, etc. and over the past few years we have picked up some real estate sign business, both commercial and residential. I could get more of this work, but at the present time we either screen print the simple signs or digitally print the more complex signs on a Mimaki JV3 and lay the vinyl on coro with a laminator. I am considering trying to locate a used flatbed printer. Our JV3 is full solvent, so I also need to consider what type of inks to use for these outdoor signs. Any thoughts on what I should look for, do's and dont's, etc. would be appreciated. We want to grow but I do not want to hire more people, so I want to invest in labor saving equipment. Thanks in advance for the input.
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Considering buying a Flatbed - need advice.
- Thread starter MarkH42
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
To expand on this, if you hafta be careful in buying the equipment best suited for your shop, thus buying what you can afford only, then don't do it, either. Buy the right tool only, when on this level.
We bought ours basically outright cash, but had a huge job all lined up for it. The deposit alone almost covered the cost of the entire machine portion and installation. Our unit runs everyday from 4 to 10 hours a day.
HulkSmash
New Member
We were in the same boat. Literally had a company ask us to buy one, and they would contract work for us. We paid cash for ours, it paid for itself in 4 months. 2 years later, that company has their own flatbed now, and we don't print as much as we use to. It's still a well used machine, just not as much as it use to be.
just let there be a reason to get it.
rjssigns
Active Member
As fickle as clients can be I would be very hesitant to make any $ix figure equipment purchases. Leverage direct to trade printers. I do.
I sleep well at night letting them worry about white ink, UV lamps, head crashes, blah blah blah...
Gino and Colorado IMO are very rare instances in the sign world.
Best bet is talk to your accountant. ROI, maintnance, market percentages, opportunity costs, etc...
I sleep well at night letting them worry about white ink, UV lamps, head crashes, blah blah blah...
Gino and Colorado IMO are very rare instances in the sign world.
Best bet is talk to your accountant. ROI, maintnance, market percentages, opportunity costs, etc...
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Those are very good points, too. While I can't speak for Color, we had been doing digital printing, since 1995. We had a few of our own in-house printers/cutters and plotters. We've been pushing out the digital prints for over a decade. Come early 2000's and we were starting to use a lotta flatbed prints from suppliers. It only seemed natural to purchase our own, when we literally created the deal and the various clients went for it. If the OP can calculate what he'll save in vinyl, laminate, monkey-time, ink, waste products and headaches, it's a no-brainer. Passing off normal business situations as sleeping good at night.... try this........ the amount of money saved... MORE than pays for all those things you leave up to your vendors. Sure, I don't want to replace an expensive head or 6 of them, but I also don't spend near as much on vinyl, laminate and inks. We still use those printers, but not near as much. Other than space and practicality.... flatbeds make a lotta sense.
ExecuPrintGS
New Member
We just recently bought a CET Q500 Hybrid.
After running it the past 2 months i can say, figure out what you plan to do/ want to do and decide hybrid or traditional from that point.
I was all about the traditional but we ended up getting the hybrid (bosses choice because of the diversity of media we can print)
Registration (front/back) is going to be trickier on a hybrid. If you do a lot of tight registration 4/4 work id say go traditional. If you dont do super tight registration a hybrid will be fine.
Also, if your getting the white ink, make sure you are going to use it. Whites a tricky beast to keep the head from drying out.
Good luck.
After running it the past 2 months i can say, figure out what you plan to do/ want to do and decide hybrid or traditional from that point.
I was all about the traditional but we ended up getting the hybrid (bosses choice because of the diversity of media we can print)
Registration (front/back) is going to be trickier on a hybrid. If you do a lot of tight registration 4/4 work id say go traditional. If you dont do super tight registration a hybrid will be fine.
Also, if your getting the white ink, make sure you are going to use it. Whites a tricky beast to keep the head from drying out.
Good luck.
DougWestwood
New Member
OCE or FUJI flatbeds
Hi There,
I have run several OCE and FUJI flatbeds since 2008, and also a Daytona, which had white ink capabilities.
The Daytona sucked. It spontaneously changed sizes during prints, the white ink was a never-ending clog,
the rollers never pulled straight, which led to buckles on the material and head strikes.
Worst machine I've ever run.
Have run several OCE Arizona GT 250 tables. Good machine, and newer models are even better.
The problem with this machine, I found, was that the techs did not have enough experience to
either train others or repair all problems. That has hopefully changed with time.
Parts were expensive, but not needed frequently. Bulbs were the most often replaced.
Third party bulbs were cheaper than the OCE bulbs, but wait till your warranty runs out.
The OCE print nozzles tend to clog, but can be retrieved with alcohol. I came into a shop with an
OCE that had many print nozzles blocked. After a few hours of diligent cleaning, I got them all back.
The boss was very happy. Do NOT use the ink flush to clean your heads.
The FUJI tables are made by OCE, but are then retro-fitted with different color metal panels and some parts.
I run two of them right now, each about 6 years old. We have had a couple of the older model print heads
start to leak on the sides, which has been rectified by a re-design and added cover on the newer heads.
If you got a new FUJI flatbed, yours would come with the newer heads, and that would not be a problem for you.
With the OCE, each material had to be profiled for ink levels and print clarity. With the FUJIs,
I have run many different materials successfully with ONE PROFILE. Others will be shocked,
and I couldn't believe it myself, but here I am. LOTS of time saved, and mistakes avoided.
The ink for these tables is kinda pricey, $400/bag. I believe we are using the KI inks.
The older inks would crack and flake in cold weather. I took a sample print of coroplast,
cut off a small piece and put it in our freezer for a couple of days.
Then, I took it out and folded it like a piece of paper, trying to get it to flake. The ink stayed exactly where it was,
and showed no stress marks where it was folded. So, they fixed that problem, too.
If I were you, and my shop was doing a LOT of laminated-vinyl-to-coro jobs, I would buy a new FUJI Acuity.
They have worked out many bugs, and the new table you get would be better than what I have here. (Envy!)
Ink is expensive, but you save so much production time and trouble, it will make you money just
by streamlined process.
I would DEFINITELY AVOID WHITE INK. It doesn't get used very often, it needs constant cleaning,
and is just a PITA all around. If a job absolutely needs it, you can find an outsource to do it.
Leave the headache to them.
Hope this helps! Good Luck!
- Doug
Vancouver
Hi There,
I have run several OCE and FUJI flatbeds since 2008, and also a Daytona, which had white ink capabilities.
The Daytona sucked. It spontaneously changed sizes during prints, the white ink was a never-ending clog,
the rollers never pulled straight, which led to buckles on the material and head strikes.
Worst machine I've ever run.
Have run several OCE Arizona GT 250 tables. Good machine, and newer models are even better.
The problem with this machine, I found, was that the techs did not have enough experience to
either train others or repair all problems. That has hopefully changed with time.
Parts were expensive, but not needed frequently. Bulbs were the most often replaced.
Third party bulbs were cheaper than the OCE bulbs, but wait till your warranty runs out.
The OCE print nozzles tend to clog, but can be retrieved with alcohol. I came into a shop with an
OCE that had many print nozzles blocked. After a few hours of diligent cleaning, I got them all back.
The boss was very happy. Do NOT use the ink flush to clean your heads.
The FUJI tables are made by OCE, but are then retro-fitted with different color metal panels and some parts.
I run two of them right now, each about 6 years old. We have had a couple of the older model print heads
start to leak on the sides, which has been rectified by a re-design and added cover on the newer heads.
If you got a new FUJI flatbed, yours would come with the newer heads, and that would not be a problem for you.
With the OCE, each material had to be profiled for ink levels and print clarity. With the FUJIs,
I have run many different materials successfully with ONE PROFILE. Others will be shocked,
and I couldn't believe it myself, but here I am. LOTS of time saved, and mistakes avoided.
The ink for these tables is kinda pricey, $400/bag. I believe we are using the KI inks.
The older inks would crack and flake in cold weather. I took a sample print of coroplast,
cut off a small piece and put it in our freezer for a couple of days.
Then, I took it out and folded it like a piece of paper, trying to get it to flake. The ink stayed exactly where it was,
and showed no stress marks where it was folded. So, they fixed that problem, too.
If I were you, and my shop was doing a LOT of laminated-vinyl-to-coro jobs, I would buy a new FUJI Acuity.
They have worked out many bugs, and the new table you get would be better than what I have here. (Envy!)
Ink is expensive, but you save so much production time and trouble, it will make you money just
by streamlined process.
I would DEFINITELY AVOID WHITE INK. It doesn't get used very often, it needs constant cleaning,
and is just a PITA all around. If a job absolutely needs it, you can find an outsource to do it.
Leave the headache to them.
Hope this helps! Good Luck!
- Doug
Vancouver
Thanks for the advice. To answer a few questions, my budget is nowhere NEAR 6 figures and I don't plan to pursue white ink capabilities just yet. I have been doing some research and the hybrids are interesting to me. We bought a used Mimaki JV3-160 about 5 years ago for under $4,000 and it has been an absolute workhorse for us. A hybrid that could run coro and roll to roll is appealing to me due to the versatility. I'm sure there are drawbacks and maybe speed is one of them, but when the time comes that I have booked this machine up, we'll discuss a faster one. At this point, I'll be lucky to run rigid media more than 10-15 hours per week, but I feel confident I can grow that with a little sales effort. So, for now I'm going to explore a hybrid. Thanks again for the advice!
Ponto
New Member
I can vouch 100% with comments regarding the Fuji unit,.......had the pleasure of working with one for a short period and they are good machines and the KI ink set works well --- twisted a coro print like a pretzel and the ink stayed intact!!!! .... not cheap though LOL.........JP