Contractor Woes - If its not in my quote am I liable for it?

[Andy D]

Andy, I don't believe you're correct on this either, but one can hope.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is, the contractor submitted your bid,

A person who bids a sign package is 2-3 times removed from the customer, the only one who sees your bid is the contractor & they only use bids to come up with their bid.

So, if you have a spec sheet on a particular project and you decide you can do A, B, D, F, S and Y and you can only do one of some of them and numerous of others and you put it in your bid, why would anyone even be interested in your bid ?? To keep bidding orders straight, you are bidding on the entire job. You cannot cherry pick particular items or how many, unless YOU clarify it with the one putting out the bid request up front.

I don't know why, but they do. The contractor is in no way required to honor your bid, until they place the order, even after providing a PO.. I have had projects where they end up getting half or none of the signs that were spec'd, because the client decided to go in a different direction & a lot of time they use me for some signs and another bid for other signs, because I was too high on something.
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[Andy D]

One more thing... these sign bids are normally part of a million dollar building project, before they even break ground.
Signs are the last things they end up getting... I bid some packages and it will be 8 months before I know I won the bid & a year and half before they actually release it... No company would feel that they had to honor estimates that far out.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

We have run into this issue a few times over the years.
Some times it is the fault of the General Contractor (GC), sometimes the Architect, sometimes the Engenieer and sometimes us the lowly sign provider.

Regardless of the cause, it is how you handle the situation and more importantly how FUTURE projects are handled.
a few points we have learned over the years

• Try to have multiple eyes check,
  
• ALWAYS send an RFI (Request For Information), for all conflicts. Even if you know the answer.
  • Having a paper trail and records (NON-Verbal) will be your alley
• List on bid submittal and proofs that only the items listed on YOUR submittal are your responsibility
• Send DETAILED proofs with the specs
  
• BOTH the bid and the proofs require WRITTEN approval

Most GC are easy enough to work with and understand that there can and will be changes during the project.

IF the GC is a total A-HOLE, we have walked away from projects that are in mid progress.
NOTE: only consider this if you are NOT in an already signed contract and the amount of loss for products and/or time is manageable

Lol, please tell that story, I'd like to hear it!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Andy, Ive worked in more than one state and can assure you that missing something on a hard bid where you go and sign a subcontractors agreement falls back on you. Giving someone an estimate where they give you a po and say go ahead and do it is not the same thing. Having unclarified issues on drawings can be argued and changed but that wasnt the main issue here.
Can the concrete sub pouring a walmart go back to the contractor with a $50k bill after pouring the slab because his estimator miscalculated the yardage?

 

[Andy D]

Can the concrete sub pouring a walmart go back to the contractor with a $50k bill after pouring the slab because his estimator miscalculated the yardage?

Again, I don't know about other areas, but here you don't have to be a contractor to bid a sign package, and I sign nothing, I never include install or signs I don't want to mess with,
I just email the bid to all of the contractors bidding on the project, prior to the set bid date and I
get it or don't.

A truer example would be having a estimate from a plumbing part business & going back there a year later and telling them "hey, I clearly asked for a quote for a (100) 3" PVC elbows, your unit price was right but you only quoted (50)! Now you have to sell me (100) at what (50) would be."

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Again, I don't know about other areas, but here you don't have to be a contractor to bid a sign package, and I sign nothing, I never include install or signs I don't want to mess with,
I just email the bid to all of the contractors bidding on the project, prior to the set bid date and I
get it or don't.

A truer example would be having a estimate from a plumbing part business & going back there a year later and telling them "hey, I clearly asked for a quote for a (100) 3" PVC elbows, your unit price was right but you only quoted (50)! Now you have to sell me (100) at what (50) would be."

That's not the same thing. I just assumed it was a standard subcontractor bid for the complete job since he said he bid to a GC which included channel letters and was $20k. You are talking about a regular quote and your example is of a supplier. This guy bid it as the plumber where he said I will do all of the plumbing per spec for $20k and signed a contract essentially saying this. If he skipped a page on the plans and missed a bathroom, then he is SOL even if he had the wrong quantity of toilets on the bid.

 

[Andy D]

I can't speak for the OP but that's how it's done here. On my estimates, I clearly call out every known aspect of the signage or say, for example "standard paint finish" when they
don't call out the paint & I also list unit price on everything... at the bottom it says "IF ANY QUANTITIES DIFFER FROM THE SPECS OR AFTER ARCHITECT REVIEW, USE UNIT PRICE."
Even if I didn't have that, there is no way in h*ll I would cover a second set of letters if it wasn't in my quote.

 

[Andy D]

I'm not taking any hit for missed signs on the GC's part.

J Burton, did you read where the OP said that he didn't include a set of letters because there wasn't enough info. Not only did the contractor expect them for free, but the set of letters were cancelled from the project and this POS contractor thought he should get a credit for what the should have been! Who does that? Every contractor I have delt with are easy going great guys, but the OP is dealing with a d*ck!

 

[Gino]

I thought he said it was in the request, but he forgot to put a second set down. He admitted it was HIS mistake.

 

[GAC05]

Lol, I sent in a bid to a construction company about 30 minutes ago. He replied back with "you missed a sign". I added it and email it back. Nice timing on this thread.

Was it new letters for Krogers?

 

[Andy D]

I thought he said it was in the request, but he forgot to put a second set down. He admitted it was HIS mistake.

He said both, he quote one set when it should have been two and left a set off because of not enough info.
But I stand by my statement that the OP has zero responsibility to stand by that quote. The contractor's project manager/estimator has one job, to go though the hundreds bids for the different parts of a project & make sure everything in the bids are correct before rewarding it to any of the bidders. A 20k - 30k bid is huge for most of us, but when it's a tiny part of a 20-30 million project, the estimator often never looks it over like they are required to...

 

[Andy D]

This guy bid it as the plumber where he said I will do all of the plumbing per spec for $20k and signed a contract essentially saying this.

You could be right, but I don't think so, I can't imagine anyone putting together a large bid like that without everything being called out and itemized, especially with signs, because like I said most of the specs are generic copy and pasted info that conflicts with the drawing. On top of that, an addendum can be added 24 hours before the bid date that can change everything. It's almost impossible to get a sign bid exactly right.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

He said both, he quote one set when it should have been two and left a set off because of not enough info.
But I stand by my statement that the OP has zero responsibility to stand by that quote. The contractor's project manager/estimator has one job, to go though the hundreds bids for the different parts of a project & make sure everything in the bids are correct before rewarding it to any of the bidders. A 20k - 30k bid is huge for most of us, but when it's a tiny part of a 20-30 million project, the estimator often never looks it over like they are required to...

You don't have to stand by your bid until you bind it with a contract. I promise you they do not have to catch your mistakes either. It would not be possible for a PM to go through every bid to check details like quantity plus it would be a gray area. Plans said 2, it said bid to spec but you put one which could mean 1 pair, 1 set, 1 group. What if it's 3 pairs of channel letters for ABC Liquors and you bid 3 letters? Then get the job and say no, I bid 3 letters A, B and C but didnt see Liquors.
A contractor I knew from out of state bid 3 miles of water main in rock. They had the bright idea to use a big rock trencher and bid the job using that machine. Well, they got in there, brought in this trencher and it wouldn't touch it. County job and they had to rent 3 big hammers at $18k/month and only got around 100' a day done when they bid for something like 300' a day. They couldn't go back and say look we need more money cuz the way we bid it wont work.
My friends dad's estimator totally missed an entire section of a shopping center on the plans. He had to finish the job and it pretty much put him out of business A local contractor here went under last year because he bid, ordered and installed the wrong box culverts than the plans called for on a road widening project. He went bankrupt from it and another company had to fix it all.

 

[Andy D]

You don't have to stand by your bid until you bind it with a contract.

With him not being a contractor, are you sure about that? It could that way in your state, but I have bid channel letters and added a quote for install from a company that only does sign installs, and have never been asked to sign a contract. And assuming the OP itemized his quote, he is only responsible for what he quoted at the price he quoted, even if he did sign a contract.

 

[Andy D]

If I bid a set of cast letters for a wall that had upper and lower type,
A proper bid would look this:
(8) 12" Upper case, "STTEEFIO" Helvetica Cast Aluminum Letters- Flat Face - Standard Finish - Standard Stud wall Mount. $xxx ea.
(15) 12" Lower case, "bbbjiillponrttt,." Helvetica Cast Aluminum Letter- Flat Face - Standard Finish - Standard Stud wall Mount $xxx ea.
And that's all I would be required to provide, at the price quoted, even if the size and quantity was wrong. I can't imagine anyone just quoting a lump sum for a set of cast letters.

 

[OddThomas]

Don't worry if you handle this properly it will be good for future business, in the future to avoid draft a second contract agreement after the quote is accepted to iron out any mistakes and just take an initial deposit you need to update your policy that any unforeseen expenses over the quote in the production of fabricating the sign will be communicated with and agreed prior to finalizing to final installment. As far as a credit def agree with everyone else don't give any credit, instead make the customer feel like they got over, customers love that. Let the customer know, "listen my apology, there was an error made with me and my time and we left it out, and this would normally change the price of the quote, but this was our mistake, and were gonna take care of it at absolutely no charge to you, I want to apologize for any inconvenience and don't worry about it, i'll make sure to take the hit on this." something like that, cuz in the end if the price is the same what are we worrying about, don't worry or stop what your doing based on this, in the end mistakes like this are speed bumps smooth over them and keep going. Good luck.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

With him not being a contractor, are you sure about that? It could that way in your state, but I have bid channel letters and added a quote for install from a company that only does sign installs, and have never been asked to sign a contract. And assuming the OP itemized his quote, he is only responsible for what he quoted at the price he quoted, even if he did sign a contract.

I think our disagreement is that to me, it didn't sound like just a quote or bid or whatever you want to call it. It wasn't like XY contracting called up and said give me a price for this stuff. It sounded like he got plans, bid the entire project off of these plans like any standard trade would do and got the job. Then started the job
As far as bidding it lump sum, you are but then you aren't. The plans have everything in them and generally the expectation is that you are responsible for proper take offs. The contract will supersede your quote.
An electrician doesn't bid a job with 3000' of wire and then say well it took me 5000' so here is your bill or go crap I only put 250 GFCIs in your quote but there are actually 500. Now if the plans said 250 but to meet code 500 would be needed then that is different.

 

[Andy D]

It sounded like he got plans, bid the entire project off of these

That's what I do, sometimes I am asked by a contractor to bid a project, but he might not get the job, so I send that sign bid to all the contractor bidding on that job. The one thing that's probably different between signs and other bids, (in my experience) you can't be in the middle of a job and figure out you got it wrong, everything has to be proofed with quantities, finish, colors, ect. Samples, color charts have to be submitted. Those proofs have to be signed off on by the architect/engineer before it's released.