Copyright question

[noiz]

What would you do?


If a long time customer of yours had someone else photograph
your hand painted sign panels (that we designed) & duplicate
them by printing them? These were food items that they carry &
we had done the same decorative signs for many of her
locations. Now our designs are being printed by someone else.
For less money. We've done these same panels at a number of her
locations over a period of many years. They were all hand lettered
but we also do some printing for her so we could have easily
printed them.


1-Are our designs copyrighted?
2-Would you duplicate another company's designs almost
exactly? Some were exact.


Imagine my surprise when we walked into the new place & saw
all of my designs done by someone else.


edit to add...OOPS! I think I should have posted this is a different area. Sorry...I am new here.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Send a very formal cease and desist letter. If you did the design and they did not buy the rights from you then you still own the artwork.

 

[noiz]

Boy what a mess I made of this thread. I posted then deleted & you answered at the same time. (I'll put it back here)

Thanks for your answer...no they did not buy the rights just the sign panels.

 

[TXFB.INS]

yup your property, Intellectual Copyright Laws.

send a cease and desist to the former customer, and tell them that you are owed XXX.XX for copyright release until that time all production must be done by your company.

 

[Gino]

When hand painting these panels over the years.......

• Were you paid for your services ??
• Did you make money on them ??
• In the invoice or quote to them when first making these panels, was it ever explained to the end-user they could not take them elsewhere ??
• Did you point out they had to buy the rights from you anywhere along these years of making them ??

Do you really think you can hold your artwork hostage, when you never gave them a choice..... or even let them know the rules of the game ??

If someone came to me years...... after the fact and told me I had a fee to pay for something, I'd tell them tough nuggies.

 

[noiz]

When hand painting these panels over the years.......

• Were you paid for your services ??
• Did you make money on them ??
• In the invoice or quote to them when first making these panels, was it ever explained to the end-user they could not take them elsewhere ??
• Did you point out they had to buy the rights from you anywhere along these years of making them ??

Do you really think you can hold your artwork hostage, when you never gave them a choice..... or even let them know the rules of the game ??

If someone came to me years...... after the fact and told me I had a fee to pay for something, I'd tell them tough nuggies.

Of course I was paid for my services. No it was never pointed out to them on these specific signs but we did get paid for designing a few logos for them on other occasions.
They have a full time atty on staff so I would think they should know about things like this. I really don't want to start anything with them because we are
still doing other work for them but to just so blatantly copy (photograph) hand drawn designs...just really baffles me as to what to say to them. I knew another company was going to do these signs but I thought they'd have enough sense to try & design something themselves. Not to just copy what I did.

 

[Get Lucky]

This is why you need to add a line to all invoices and paperwork that any designs or art work is property of your company unless a written release is granted. This would solve most of the problems people are complaining about on here.

As for you current problem decide if losing a customer is worth the gripe. If yes say something, if not shut up and offer the fact that you may be able to print the signs cheaper. At lest offer to quote the work. The other thing is maybe hand them a line card of your services. They may have someone new deciding what goes where to be completed.

Couple options anyway.

 

[Gino]

Of course I was paid for my services. No it was never pointed out to them on these specific signs but we did get paid for designing a few logos for them on other occasions.
They have a full time atty on staff so I would think they should know about things like this. I really don't want to start anything with them because we are
still doing other work for them but to just so blatantly copy (photograph) hand drawn designs...just really baffles me as to what to say to them. I knew another company was going to do these signs but I thought they'd have enough sense to try & design something themselves. Not to just copy what I did.

You answered the question honestly, but if you didn't tell them, why does their attorney need to know something he wasn't aware of ?? He does know the law and I'm sure he'll beat it, should you start sending them letters and stuff, but you can kiss the whole account good-bye, as they'll settle out of court and give you peanuts for raising a ruckus over nothing. You'd have a leg to stand on, if you gave them written notice of something, when taking place. Not years later.

Just ask yourself a question..... you think the lawyer should've known this years ago..... why can't they say, if you knew this years ago, why didn't you tell us up front ??

 

[noiz]

You answered the question honestly, but if you didn't tell them, why does their attorney need to know something he wasn't aware of ?? He does know the law and I'm sure he'll beat it, should you start sending them letters and stuff, but you can kiss the whole account good-bye, as they'll settle out of court and give you peanuts for raising a ruckus over nothing. You'd have a leg to stand on, if you gave them written notice of something, when taking place. Not years later.

Just ask yourself a question..... you think the lawyer should've known this years ago..... why can't they say, if you knew this years ago, why didn't you tell us up front ??

Well I should think the atty would know about copyright laws. And apparently I didn't. This wasn't years ago. We have been doing work for this client for years & still are... just not these sign panels. I stated earlier that I don't want to raise a ruckus but I do want them to know I am shocked. And disappointed.

Oh & these sign panels are ones we just did for them 2 months ago. Same as the ones we did for years...so yeah we got paid over & over.

So would you exactly duplicate anothers work?

 

[noiz]

This is why you need to add a line to all invoices and paperwork that any designs or art work is property of your company unless a written release is granted. This would solve most of the problems people are complaining about on here.

As for you current problem decide if losing a customer is worth the gripe. If yes say something, if not shut up and offer the fact that you may be able to print the signs cheaper. At lest offer to quote the work. The other thing is maybe hand them a line card of your services. They may have someone new deciding what goes where to be completed.

Couple options anyway.

Yep you are correct. I'll have to decide about the client. And yes, I can try to give another quote.

 

[visual800]

When hand painting these panels over the years.......

• Were you paid for your services ??
• Did you make money on them ??
• In the invoice or quote to them when first making these panels, was it ever explained to the end-user they could not take them elsewhere ??
• Did you point out they had to buy the rights from you anywhere along these years of making them ??

Do you really think you can hold your artwork hostage, when you never gave them a choice..... or even let them know the rules of the game ??

If someone came to me years...... after the fact and told me I had a fee to pay for something, I'd tell them tough nuggies.

EXACTLY! You did a job and got paid let it be done. this doesnt work like record royalty IMO.

 

[bob]

Of course I was paid for my services. No it was never pointed out to them on these specific signs but we did get paid for designing a few logos for them on other occasions.
They have a full time atty on staff so I would think they should know about things like this. I really don't want to start anything with them because we are
still doing other work for them but to just so blatantly copy (photograph) hand drawn designs...just really baffles me as to what to say to them. I knew another company was going to do these signs but I thought they'd have enough sense to try & design something themselves. Not to just copy what I did.

EXACTLY! You did a job and got paid let it be done. this doesnt work like record royalty IMO.

Your collective ignorance of copyright law does not alter that law nor does is the law's authority suspended because you believe otherwise.

Unless specifically released the client does not own rights to any design work done by another. That ownership remains with the author regardless of any fees paid. This is easily enforceable under the 1989 Berne Convention. I myself having done so in small claims court. All that's required is to show that the date the work was created predates the particular use of that work which annoys you. A simple screen shot showing file contents and creation data is sufficient. At least it was for me. If you go to court you should also print a copy of the Berne Convention and bring that right along with your screen shots.

 

[noiz]

Your collective ignorance of copyright law does not alter that law nor does is the law's authority suspended because you believe otherwise.

Unless specifically released the client does not own rights to any design work done by another. That ownership remains with the author regardless of any fees paid. This is easily enforceable under the 1989 Berne Convention. I myself having done so in small claims court. All that's required is to show that the date the work was created predates the particular use of that work which annoys you. A simple screen shot showing file contents and creation data is sufficient. At least it was for me. If you go to court you should also print a copy of the Berne Convention and bring that right along with your screen shots.

I will look up that Berne convention to see what it has to say. Thanks for the info. I bet I have files on these from 15 years ago.

 

[Billct2]

So would you exactly duplicate anothers work?

In 40 years of making signs I'm sure I have done this many times.
Somebody comes by with their old truck and says I want my new truck lettered the same...
or they have a business card and want the same design on their sign....
or they want their old faded sign remade with the same design....
Yep, I've copied somebodies design many times.