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copyright question

Stacey K

I like making signs
I wonder, if you re-create or download a logo that matched a trademarked logo exactly, and then place that logo where the original logo was placed on the product, is this a legal used of a trademarked logo? I should think this would be ok, but I could be wrong. However, I suspect your chance of being caught in this event would be somewhere between slim and none.

On the other hand, if you sell trademarked logos that anyone can place anywhere, this would seem to be in violation of trademark law.

...Then there was the commercial for a luxury good. The competitor used the other brand's logo in its advertising. But they made the mistake of using a logo that looked like the competitor, but had certain differences. They were told to stop using the commercial. Had they used the exact logo, they would (might) have been ok.

So, the answer is: You might not doing anything ethically or legally wrong if you take a shot and put a one off logo on the product it came from. If the trademark owner wants to sue you or the person who bought the logo, they likely have deeper pockets than you and will either win the case or outspend you. Also, if the trademark is being used for comparative advertising, use the exact trademark of the competitor, not a modified version.

Then there is another case, and that is parody. You can create a logo that is recognizable as the original logo, but pokes fun at the original logo.

So, uh, let your lawyer, your conscience, your pocketbook or your chance of being found out be your guide.

I am not an attorney, but have researched this issue. Your results may vary. It's interesting, but doesn't seem to have a clear cut answer.

Would an example of this be…you have a guy with a John Deere tractor. The side of the tractor gets scratched and he wants the John Deere sticker replaced? I just did this last month. And we removed a small one in the rear, added his logo and added the small John Deere sticker in a different location. I’m sure it’s illegal but not as much as if I were just selling the stickers for $20 at my shop…which I’m not.


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signbrad

New Member
It's important to remember what the purpose of trademark law is. Trademark law is part of the body of law that works to prevent unfair competition among businesses.
Trademarks are symbols of the identity and reputation of the source of a product or service—part of the goodwill that a business may have worked long and hard to build up over time. People become familiar with trademarks to the extent that they come to have certain expectations about quality or value when they see a particular trademark. Consumers use trademarks to make purchasing decisions. Hence, trademarks help prevent confusion in the marketplace.

Copyright aims to prevent copying. By contrast, trademark aims to prevent confusion. The thrust of the law is totally different.

In the case of creating a John Deere decal, the question to ask is not, "Will I get caught?" The question would be, "Will Deere & Company view this as infringement?"
What if your fourth grader duplicated perfectly the John Deere logo on his notebook at school? Would Deere & Company view this obviously unauthorized use of the logo as a trademark infringement? Would the company's legal department send the child a cease-and-desist letter? Would he get detention? Would his colored pencils be confiscated? Would the company even care?

Deere & Company holds a trademark registration on not just the logos they use, but also on the distinctive green-with-yellow stripe color combination used on most of their farm equipment. No other farm implement company may use color schemes that are confusingly similar. Deere doesn't own the green (they tried), nor do they own the yellow, but they own the green-with-yellow stripe. So, if a body shop restored a John Deere tractor's paint scheme, would people become confused? Would Deere sue them for infringement? Would they even bother to send a letter? Or would they view it as a non-issue, feeling that their legal department has better things to do?

It doesn't matter what we sign makers believe. If Deere & Company does not view it as infringement, it is not infringement. You might think, "What if a court decides it's infringement?"That wouldn't even happen if Deere doesn't view it as infringement. Think—if Deere doesn't litigate, how would the question even get to court in the first place? It wouldn't. There are no trademark police prowling for trademark infringers. Trademark police do not exist. And a citizen off the street certainly cannot initiate a trademark litigation on Deer's behalf. It is solely Deere's responsibility to determine whether (they believe) infringement has occurred and whether to take any action and how far to pursue it. And even if Deere litigates, there is no guarantee that a court will side with the company. Do you think a judge will throw the book at a fourth-grader? What will Deer's stockholders think? Will the CEO think it a good use of the legal division's budget?

When Starbucks sent a cease-and-desist letter to a pub in the St. Louis area a few years ago because the pub was calling one of its house drinks after a cold-coffee brand belonging to Starbucks (though spelled differently), the bar owner shrewdly sent a check for six dollars to Starbucks, turning over his ill-gotten profits, and then alerted the local news media. Of course, the local media had a field day with the story and Starbucks got a bit of a black eye for using what was termed a "big stick" against the poor bar owner, who got some nice publicity out of it. My point? Although corporations are generally aggressive about protecting their trademarks, they are also aware that a legal action can backfire if it seems frivolous. They don't just sue everybody willy-nilly. In one of my paralegal classes at a local college here, my instructor, a trademark lawyer, said that litigation is expensive even for big corporations, and they try to avoid it if possible. She said they almost always try to handle a problem with the cheapest method, which is a cease-and-desist letter.

The Frapuccino frap

Deere & Company is certainly not above mounting lawsuits. They sued a major Chinese farm equipment manufacturer (around 2014) in a Chinese court—and won not only an injunction but a monetary award as well. The Chinese company was painting their tractors green and yellow.

Chinese court vindicates Deer & Co

.................................

If a consumer sees a green and yellow tractor, the viewer has the right to expect that the equipment is made by Deere & Company, and not some other agricultural manufacturer. If a business has a big illuminated sign with a John Deere logo, consumers have the right to expect the business to be an authorized dealership. This is the point of trademark law—to prevent confusion in the marketplace. A protected logo serves to identify the source of goods.

If a body shop repaints a tractor and installs John Deere decals on it, what is the liklihood of confusion? What if they put the wrong decals on? Maybe the decals for a Model A onto a Model B? Only my grandpa would know.

...............................................

Not every duplication of a protected trademark constitutes infringement. Don't confuse copyright protection with trademark protection. Copyright forbids copying. Trademark forbids the creating of confusion in the marketplace.
Interestingly, one of the most legally aggressive entities in the US, The National Football League, allows the duplication of its team names and logos—by grade schools—as long as they don't change the colors or the artwork. And even when the schools change the colors, the NFL doesn't prosecute. Why does the NFL allow this? Well, it probably creates goodwill for them. And the NFL probably doesn't feel threatened by fourth-graders. :)
According to Brian McCarthy of the NFL, as quoted in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel of November 12, 2020—

"From an NFL standpoint, hundreds of high school and youth programs use NFL nicknames or team logos and we think that's great," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said. "We support football wherever it's played. We do vigorously protect the trademarks of our teams, but when it comes to a youth team or a high school using a name or logo of a particular NFL team, that's not an issue with us."


At the moment, no grade school here is clamoring to use the Chiefs logo.
How does that old poem go? "But there is no joy in Mudville, mighty [Patrick] has struck out..."
Maybe next year.

Brad in Kansas City
 
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Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
It's important to remember what the purpose of trademark law is. Trademark law is part of the body of law that works to prevent unfair competition among businesses.
Trademarks are symbols of the identity and reputation of the source of a product or service—part of the goodwill that a business may have worked long and hard to build up over time. People become familiar with trademarks to the extent that they come to have certain expectations about quality or value when they see a particular trademark. Consumers use trademarks to make purchasing decisions. Hence, trademarks help prevent confusion in the marketplace.

Copyright aims to prevent copying. By contrast, trademark aims to prevent confusion. The thrust of the law is totally different.

In the case of creating a John Deere decal, the question to ask is not, "Will I get caught?" The question would be, "Will Deere & Company view this as infringement?"
What if your fourth grader duplicated perfectly the John Deere logo on his notebook at school? Would Deere & Company view this obviously unauthorized use of the logo as a trademark infringement? Would the company's legal department send the child a cease-and-desist letter? Would he get detention? Would his colored pencils be confiscated? Would the company even care?

Deere & Company holds a trademark registration on not just the logos they use, but also on the distinctive green-with-yellow stripe color combination used on most of their farm equipment. No other farm implement company may use color schemes that are confusingly similar. Deere doesn't own the green (they tried), nor do they own the yellow, but they own the green-with-yellow stripe. So, if a body shop restored a John Deere tractor's paint scheme, would people become confused? Would Deere sue them for infringement? Would they even bother to send a letter? Or would they view it as a non-issue, feeling that their legal department has better things to do?

It doesn't matter what we sign makers believe. If Deere & Company does not view it as infringement, it is not infringement. You might think, "What if a court decides it's infringement?"That wouldn't even happen if Deere doesn't view it as infringement. Think—if Deere doesn't litigate, how would the question even get to court in the first place? It wouldn't. There are no trademark police prowling for trademark infringers. Trademark police do not exist. And a citizen off the street certainly cannot initiate a trademark litigation on Deer's behalf. It is solely Deere's responsibility to determine whether (they believe) infringement has occurred and whether to take any action and how far to pursue it. And even if Deere litigates, there is no guarantee that a court will side with the company. Do you think a judge will throw the book at a fourth-grader? What will Deer's stockholders think? Will the CEO think it a good use of the legal division's budget?

When Starbucks sent a cease-and-desist letter to a pub in the St. Louis area a few years ago because the pub was calling one of its house drinks after a cold-coffee brand belonging to Starbucks (though spelled differently), the bar owner shrewdly sent a check for six dollars to Starbucks, turning over his ill-gotten profits, and then alerted the local news media. Of course, the local media had a field day with the story and Starbucks got a bit of a black eye for using what was termed a "big stick" against the poor bar owner, who got some nice publicity out of it. My point? Although corporations are generally aggressive about protecting their trademarks, they are also aware that a legal action can backfire if it seems frivolous. They don't just sue everybody willy-nilly. In one of my paralegal classes at a local college here, my instructor, a trademark lawyer, said that litigation is expensive even for big corporations, and they try to avoid it if possible. She said they almost always try to handle a problem with the cheapest method, which is a cease-and-desist letter.

The Frapuccino frap

Deere & Company is certainly not above mounting lawsuits. They sued a major Chinese farm equipment manufacturer (around 2014) in a Chinese court—and won not only an injunction but a monetary award as well. The Chinese company was painting their tractors green and yellow.

Chinese court vindicates Deer & Co

.................................

If a consumer sees a green and yellow tractor, the viewer has the right to expect that the equipment is made by Deere & Company, and not some other agricultural manufacturer. If a business has a big illuminated sign with a John Deere logo, consumers have the right to expect the business to be an authorized dealership. This is the point of trademark law—to prevent confusion in the marketplace. A protected logo serves to identify the source of goods.

If a body shop repaints a tractor and installs John Deere decals on it, what is the liklihood of confusion? What if they put the wrong decals on? Maybe the decals for a Model A onto a Model B? Only my grandpa would know.

...............................................

Not every duplication of a protected trademark constitutes infringement. Don't confuse copyright protection with trademark protection. Copyright forbids copying. Trademark forbids the creating of confusion in the marketplace.
Interestingly, one of the most legally aggressive entities in the US, The National Football League, allows the duplication of its team names and logos—by grade schools—as long as they don't change the colors or the artwork. And even when the schools change the colors, the NFL doesn't prosecute. Why does the NFL allow this? Well, it probably creates goodwill for them. And the NFL probably doesn't feel threatened by fourth-graders. :)
According to Brian McCarthy of the NFL, as quoted in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel of November 12, 2020—




At the moment, no grade school here is clamoring to use the Chiefs logo.
How does that old poem go? "But there is no joy in Mudville, mighty [Patrick] has struck out..."
Maybe next year.

Brad in Kansas City
Putting a Deere decal on a John Deere machine is not the issue for sure and would also say is not the spirit of the trademark law. JLG also sued a Chinese manufacturer that were painting their scissor lifts the same color scheme as JLG and importing them to the USA. JLG won that one as well.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
signbrad said:
In the case of creating a John Deere decal, the question to ask is not, "Will I get caught?" The question would be, "Will Deere & Company view this as infringement?"
What if your fourth grader duplicated perfectly the John Deere logo on his notebook at school? Would Deere & Company view this obviously unauthorized use of the logo as a trademark infringement? Would the company's legal department send the child a cease-and-desist letter? Would he get detention? Would his colored pencils be confiscated? Would the company even care?

The key thing is money. Deere & Company likely wouldn't care at all if some kid drew "fan art" of their logo on a notebook. The important factor is the kid is not making any money directly off of the effort. The fair use doctrine permits use of trademarked and copyrighted material in certain circumstances, such as press use, parody in entertainment, commentary, etc. The kid's notebook drawing would fall into that category on freedom of speech grounds.

Now if the kid started selling mass produced copies of the John Deere logo as merchandizing he would be crossing a big line.

signbrad said:
There are no trademark police prowling for trademark infringers. Trademark police do not exist.

They don't need to exist. Not with tools like online search engines for images. Businesses who deliberately infringe on trademarks and copyrights do so out of the belief no one cares or they won't get caught or the evil gub'ment ain't gonna tell me what I can or can't do.

Over the past 20 years I've seen at least half a dozen or more companies just here in Lawton find out the hard way about trademark and copyright infringement. The risk is real. There was a local day care center here that had a mural of cartoon apes from the 1999 animated Tarzan movie painted on an exterior wall. This was after Disney forced three day care centers in Florida to remove Disney cartoon characters from their walls. Sure enough, the day care center here was forced to do the same thing.

The Hard Rock Café logo is pretty well known. A local business that makes things like kitchen counter tops called Hard Rock Surfaces literally used that "Hard Rock" lettering in its logo. Early on we had warned that company they were taking a risk with their logo design choice. They didn't want to hear it. Well, it didn't take all that long for the Cherokee Nation and Seminole Nation to notice. The Seminoles (who now own all the Hard Rock IP rights) sued that local business, which settled for an undisclosed amount of money and changed its logo along with all the signage and vehicle graphics produced using it.

Right now there is another business in my town, a local gun dealer, that is literally copying the Roman sentry portrait from the American Express logo as part of its logo. They've tried to simplify some of the line work, but it's still an obvious rip-off of the American Express sentry. I figure it's only a matter of time before AMEX forces that company to completely change its brand identity.

Our company does not screw around with making unauthorized copies of trademarks for just anyone. If a local John Deere dealer needs that trademark reproduced on signs or vehicle graphics we're happy to help. That's a legit use. But we're not going to reproduce the logo for someone just wanting it on the back window of their personal vehicle.

signbrad said:
Interestingly, one of the most legally aggressive entities in the US, The National Football League, allows the duplication of its team names and logos—by grade schools—as long as they don't change the colors or the artwork. And even when the schools change the colors, the NFL doesn't prosecute. Why does the NFL allow this? Well, it probably creates goodwill for them. And the NFL probably doesn't feel threatened by fourth-graders.

One of our local high schools literally uses the Philadelphia Eagles wings icon on its helmets, but they changed the wing logo colors to a light blue and red motif. However the school has a different Eagles logo used on signs and other materials.
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
Lots and lots of requests for back window graphics, I tell them to go on Ebay or Etsy. Who has time for that little stuff anyway...not worth it.

There's a couple elderly gentlemen in the area that restore a tractor each winter as a project. Last year it was a Masey Ferguson. The stories of each tractors history and how they restored them are really fascinating. I feel OK reproducing a random sticker here and there for them. If I owned JD or Case or whatever and someone spent 100's of hours restoring a 100 year old tractor my company built and gets it to run, I would be pretty damn proud of that! I would not be too concerned about the stickers. They always bring me a photo of the finished tractor and they are so proud of their work, it's really cool.

I had no idea about the high school/NFL logos, that is super interesting!
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
I don't mind the Washington Football Team name change from the "Redskins" to "Commanders" at all. But the recent unveiling of that new logo was about as anti-climactic as it could be. We waited all this time for that plain Jane crap? That "W" icon might work great as a tiny favicon on a web site. It's pretty bland for sports related branding. I'd be surprised if any high schools tried emulating it on their school helmets!

Stacey K said:
I had no idea about the high school/NFL logos, that is super interesting!

The practice has been widespread for decades. I remember seeing a commercial from the NFL maybe a year or so ago that was promoting football for youth sports. Some of the kids playing were wearing helmets with NFL team logos on them.

Merchandising is an area where things get tricky. It's one thing for a high school football team to put NFL team logos on its helmets. It's another if the same NFL logos are being re-used on t-shirts, pennants or other merchandise items sold to the public. The same issues affect logos of college football teams. The Oklahoma Sooners have a pretty legendary college football program (although it has been over 20 years now since they've won a national title). OU is pretty strict about the use of its logo, even though I think it's kind of old and clunky looking. They certainly don't put up with any unauthorized merchandizing use of it.
 

signbrad

New Member
DISCLAIMER

I am not a lawyer. I am a sign goober just like everyone else here. Nothing I write on the subject of intellectual property should ever be construed as legal advice or even good advice. Nobody's comments, including mine, should take the place of competent legal counsel from an attorney specializing in intellectual property.
IP lawyers are not the same as regular lawyers. They commonly have engineering degrees as well as law degrees. They are specialists. And they are really smart.

I hope this disclaimer makes my landlord happy. He is a real lawyer and he doesn't want me going to jail for dispensing legal counsel without a license and thereby missing a rent check.
 

signbrad

New Member
Some John Deere trivia:
The Model A was built from 1934 to 1952. 2-cylinder, 321 cubic-inch, which put out over 34 HP. Over 300,000 were sold.
The Model B was built from 1935 to 1952. Still a 2-cylinder, but with a 190 cubic-inch motor yielding over 24 HP. Over 300,000 sold.

The B was considered a 2/3 size tractor compared to the A. The B pulled a 2-bottom plow. I think the A was considered a 2-plow as well, but I'm sure my grandpa pulled a 3-bottom with his.
Both had six speeds forward and, between the two of them, they were the most-sold tractors in history.

Off-topic?:doh:
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
Some John Deere trivia:
The Model A was built from 1934 to 1952. 2-cylinder, 321 cubic-inch, which put out over 34 HP. Over 300,000 were sold.
The Model B was built from 1935 to 1952. Still a 2-cylinder, but with a 190 cubic-inch motor yielding over 24 HP. Over 300,000 sold.

The B was considered a 2/3 size tractor compared to the A. The B pulled a 2-bottom plow. I think the A was considered a 2-plow as well, but I'm sure my grandpa pulled a 3-bottom with his.
Both had six speeds forward and, between the two of them, they were the most-sold tractors in history.

Off-topic?:doh:

That is interesting, I’m
Not much of a tractor expert but my boys and their Dad bought a JD 2840 (1979?) and restored it and they use it for cash cropping. It took quite a few man hours but a very good learning experience. They had to pull the engine, repainted and a bunch of other stuff they explained that I can’t remember or don’t understand lol my boyfriend has a Ford 5000 we use for the garden. We have “drive your tractor to school day” up here. There’s always a few there lol


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Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
That is interesting, I’m
Not much of a tractor expert but my boys and their Dad bought a JD 2840 (1979?) and restored it and they use it for cash cropping. It took quite a few man hours but a very good learning experience. They had to pull the engine, repainted and a bunch of other stuff they explained that I can’t remember or don’t understand lol my boyfriend has a Ford 5000 we use for the garden. We have “drive your tractor to school day” up here. There’s always a few there lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's awesome!
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
That is interesting, I’m
Not much of a tractor expert but my boys and their Dad bought a JD 2840 (1979?) and restored it and they use it for cash cropping. It took quite a few man hours but a very good learning experience. They had to pull the engine, repainted and a bunch of other stuff they explained that I can’t remember or don’t understand lol my boyfriend has a Ford 5000 we use for the garden. We have “drive your tractor to school day” up here. There’s always a few there lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We painted this one not too long ago
IMG_20220211_231354.jpg
 
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signbrad

New Member
I want to add a comment on plagiarism, though it is somewhat off-topic.

Plagiarism is not illegal, as many know. But it is certainly unethical in copywriting. Plagiarism is passing off as your own the work of someone else, and it is a serious sin in the academic world. At the very least it can cause a student to be automatically failed in a class. At worst, a student will be expelled from school. Most professors have a zero tolerance for plagiarism.

Plagiarism is often confused with copyright infringement. They are not the same.
For example, if you copy a play of Shakespeare and claim you are the author, that is plagiarism, but it is not copyright infringement because Shakespeare's works have been in the public domain for a long time. They are not protected by copyright. Though not illegal, plagiarism is dishonest.

Copyright infringement is when you copy someone's protected work without permission.

Brad
 
Informative discussion. Years ago a local stock car racer raced a Monte Carlo. Chevy at the time was using Warner Brothers' Tasmanian Devil in some of their advertising (he was flying horizontal, hanging on to a wheel well). I figured no one would care, so I took the time to scan it in, convert the image to vector and recreate it on a Gerber Edge. I applied it to both sides of the car, hanging from the rear wheel well. He raced at a local 1/4 mile track. I'll be damned--there happened to be someone from Warner Brothers in the stands (I have no idea why he was there, probably visiting family). He contacted the racer, who gave him my name. They sent a cease and desist letter, which I responded to, essentially telling them the racer (very successful one at that) was making them look good, and the racer could take it off if he wanted but I wouldn't. Never heard back from them.
 

Adam Vreeke

Knows just enough to get in a lot of trouble..
I want to add a comment on plagiarism, though it is somewhat off-topic.

Plagiarism is not illegal, as many know. But it is certainly unethical in copywriting. Plagiarism is passing off as your own the work of someone else, and it is a serious sin in the academic world. At the very least it can cause a student to be automatically failed in a class. At worst, a student will be expelled from school. Most professors have a zero tolerance for plagiarism.

Plagiarism is often confused with copyright infringement. They are not the same.
For example, if you copy a play of Shakespeare and claim you are the author, that is plagiarism, but it is not copyright infringement because Shakespeare's works have been in the public domain for a long time. They are not protected by copyright. Though not illegal, plagiarism is dishonest.

Copyright infringement is when you copy someone's protected work without permission.

Brad
 
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