create an ICC profile via your design program

[Andy D]

I have always created my own ICC profile via my rip program, but something that occurred to me while I was driving home yesterday, there's no way my rip program ( Onyx ) can correct for the multiple variables
that my design program (Corel Draw) can have when I export a file to print from. Wouldn't it make more sense to export the calibration files from your design program to create an ICC profile.
I hope I explained my thought process well enough to make myself clear.

 

[Solventinkjet]

It does in a way. The working space profiles in your design program get embedded in the file when you save it except for EPS files and files where you specifically tell it not to. When the RIP processes the file it uses the working space profile embedded in your file along with the color profile for your printer to create a new RIPed file that is sent to the printer. If you send a file with no profile, it just looks at the raw CMYK values and RIPs the file with the printer profile. I hope that is what you were asking. That is why rendering intents are a thing and also why when your rendering intents for RGB and CMYK are different, you get the dreaded bounding box around anything with a transparency. It's much more complicated than that but I am not an expert by any means.

 

[Andy D]

You're saying if the rip design program does it job right, it adjusts for the embedded working space profiles, even I were to export and print the same file from two different pre-press workstations, that have different
Corel Draw color management settings, in theory, the colors should be the same, correct?

 

[Andy D]

Something I have experienced is, with one version of Corel Draw, when I exported files as RGB the colors would be rich and CMYK would be muted and washed out...
then when I upgraded to a new version, those would flip to where CMYK would be rich and correct and RGB would be washed out.

 

[Solventinkjet]

You're saying if the rip design program does it job right, it adjusts for the embedded working space profiles, even I were to export and print the same file from two different pre-press workstations, that have different
Corel Draw color management settings, in theory, the colors should be the same, correct?

Think of it this way, your working space profile tells the RIP, "This is where I am coming from. My gamut is such and such and I am specifically using the US COATED SWOP profile" and the output profile in the RIP is saying, "Ok if this is where they are coming, from then I am going to adjust the values in such a way that they print as close to the intended color as possible based on a ton of things like ink type, media type, the white point of the vinyl etc." So if the input profiles are different then you most likely will get different colors but very slightly different in most cases because most working space profiles are very close to each other.

Something I have experienced is, with one version of Corel Draw, when I exported files as RGB the colors would be rich and CMYK would be muted and washed out...
then when I upgraded to a new version, those would flip to where CMYK would be rich and correct and RGB would be washed out.

So this could be for a bunch of reasons but the main reason RGB can create more vibrant colors in some cases on a CMYK printer almost always comes down to the fact that the working space profile you are using has a smaller gamut than the one your printer is actually capable of printing. RGB has a much wider gamut so when you send it to the RIP it takes advantage of that. That being said, if you create your own working space profile to match the gamut of your printer, you can print all day long using CMYK and hit all the vibrant colors you want.

 

[signman315]

Think of it this way, your working space profile tells the RIP, "This is where I am coming from. My gamut is such and such and I am specifically using the US COATED SWOP profile" and the output profile in the RIP is saying, "Ok if this is where they are coming, from then I am going to adjust the values in such a way that they print as close to the intended color as possible based on a ton of things like ink type, media type, the white point of the vinyl etc." So if the input profiles are different then you most likely will get different colors but very slightly different in most cases because most working space profiles are very close to each other.



So this could be for a bunch of reasons but the main reason RGB can create more vibrant colors in some cases on a CMYK printer almost always comes down to the fact that the working space profile you are using has a smaller gamut than the one your printer is actually capable of printing. RGB has a much wider gamut so when you send it to the RIP it takes advantage of that. That being said, if you create your own working space profile to match the gamut of your printer, you can print all day long using CMYK and hit all the vibrant colors you want.

Agreed and good info....to add to it when setting up a file in RGB your rendering intents are much more important because it's possible/likely your RGB file has colors outside the gamut of your printer. The rendering intents determine how the RIP "moves" those colors that are outside the printable gamut into the printable range. So for example if you use "absolute" rendering intent, then it will push all of the colors that are outside of the gamut into the printable range and leave those that were already within range alone. But if you use "relative" or "perceptual" then it will push the colors that are outside of the gamut into the printable range but it will also move all of the other colors with it proportionally, in order to attempt to maintain the relationships between the colors. So for example if you are printing a vector graphic without photographic elements then using "absolute" will likely yield the best color accuracy and closest matches....but if printing a photographic image the "relative" or "perceptual" will yield a more natural looking image. Sometimes if the RIP pushes a large range of colors into the printable gamut then they all end up "piled" up at the end of the gamut and your prints could look blown out, or lose detail.

 

[Terry01]

Do you all calibrate your monitors before attempting to create profiles??..for starters you need to be able to see what your printer
sees.

 

[ColorCrest]

there's no way my rip program ( Onyx ) can correct for the multiple variables
that my design program (Corel Draw) can have when I export a file to print from.

Two things...

1) Yes, Onyx is capable of handling mixed input profiles. (See the attached image.) You should have the file "Onyx Quality Evaluation.pdf" in your Onyx folder(s). Notice all the intents are set to Perceptual.

2) It should be the job of in-house designers to "normalize" the elements of files destined to print. For example, make sure all the photo elements use the same working space with embedded profiles. For shops who accept files from outside, the prepress operator should be sure to again normalize anything they can. For example, if an element does not have an embedded profile, assign a profile that makes sense. Otherwise, Onyx will use the default that it is setup to use in the case of missing profiles and that may not be the best choice for the given element.

Also, I cannot think of a reason to not have all your in-house workstation synchronized for color.

 

[ColorCrest]

most working space profiles are very close to each other.

Except in the case of typical RGB working spaces.

That being said, if you create your own working space profile to match the gamut of your printer, you can print all day long using CMYK and hit all the vibrant colors you want.

How do you do this?

 

[ColorCrest]

when setting up a file in RGB your rendering intents are much more important because it's possible/likely your RGB file has colors outside the gamut of your printer.

Rendering intents are every bit as important for CMYK work for the same reason.

The rendering intents determine how the RIP "moves" those colors that are outside the printable gamut into the printable range.

Rendering intents can also move colors that are within gamut as well.

if you use "absolute" rendering intent, then it will push all of the colors that are outside of the gamut into the printable range and leave those that were already within range alone.

Absolute rendering intent is used specifically to convert and match colors relative to a known source of white point which is different than the print media white point, as in proofing or attempting to have one printer match another which has darker whites than the new print. Otherwise not typically used for sign graphics. Misuse of Absolute intent can have many awful side effects such significantly limiting gamut and more.

if you use "relative" or "perceptual" then it will push the colors that are outside of the gamut into the printable range but it will also move all of the other colors with it proportionally

Perceptual rendering intent will move colors proportionally. Relative intent will not.

if you are printing a vector graphic without photographic elements then using "absolute" will likely yield the best color accuracy and closest matches

An unorthodox use of Absolute intent.

if printing a photographic image the "relative" or "perceptual" will yield a more natural looking image.

Perceptual intent is, by far, the most common and most accurate as most modern photographic captures contain high gamut colors.

Sometimes if the RIP pushes a large range of colors into the printable gamut then they all end up "piled" up at the end of the gamut and your prints could look blown out, or lose detail.

Exactly why Perceptual intent should be used instead of Relative intent.

Don’t forget and don’t underestimate Saturation rendering intent, a sign maker’s friend.

 

[Andy_warp]

I say let the rip do it's job. If I had it my way, I would never deal with another cmyk file. That is EXACTLY what your rip is for. As for managing your color on the front end...what exactly is that benefit? Unless you have multiple versions of rip software, it should always be the destination before the proverbial rubber hits the road.

The way I like to think of it is your rip will make dots specific to your printer, printheads and print condition.
Adobe/Corel software has no way of knowing which flavor of dots you want...but your rip does!

Print resolution (not ppi) and screen methods can greatly affect how your color may look.
Also, unless you jack with rip settings frequently...it will stay more consistent than a file in which icc working spaces have been applied/converted.

What kind of "variables" do you get when you export?

My biggest burning question is why do your prepress work stations have different color management policies?!
I don't like that. I don't like that at all!

Even if CM setting ARE all the same, any difference in the workflow of how a file is created will make them look different.

 

[Andy D]

My biggest burning question is why do your prepress work stations have different color management policies?!
I don't like that. I don't like that at all!
.

That was the best "what if" scenario I could pose to Vander J, to make sure I was on the same page.

 

[Andy_warp]

That was the best "what if" scenario I could pose to Vander J, to make sure I was on the same page.

Gotcha!
I've seen your posts and Vander J's.

You guys are cut from the same printer cloth as me.

If you want to be a real dumb masochist (like me)...get into grand format dye sublimation!
It hurts so good.

Honestly, all I did was follow the media wizard for profiling.
I already knew a good deal about ink limiting and black generation...and basic densitromity and calibration.

I got to reprint a project from 2012 with my new setup. (printer, profile, ink)
Nothing was profiled then...7 rounds of color proofs.

We printed the straight client files...first shot is gold!

 

[Pauly]

I have always created my own ICC profile via my rip program, but something that occurred to me while I was driving home yesterday, there's no way my rip program ( Onyx ) can correct for the multiple variables
that my design program (Corel Draw) can have when I export a file to print from. Wouldn't it make more sense to export the calibration files from your design program to create an ICC profile.
I hope I explained my thought process well enough to make myself clear.

It's already been covered but simply have all your design programs on all of your work stations configured the same.

Do you all calibrate your monitors before attempting to create profiles??..for starters you need to be able to see what your printer
sees.

You don't need to.
It depends on how far your evaluations go.
You can simply print a test chart on your printer and say "yes, this visually looks great" and leave it at that.

When you start comparing prints to your monitor, then yes you want it calibrated.
But you'd probably want D50 lighting or your print will look wrong on standard office lighting.

How far do you go??