Customer hasn't paid for his sign after 3 months, can I take it down...?!

[signtek]

We fitted a sign for a business about 3 months ago - windows covered in digital print, dibond sign covered in digital print, plus fret cut letters. Total cost was about £1500 inc. vat.

It's been 3 months, the customer came in about a month ago and paid £250, but apart from that hasn't paid anything, every time I ring up he just says "can't do anything, don't have any money".

I've heard rumours that he's just going to bankrupt the company after Christmas, so I want to go and take my sign down. As he's paid £250, he says that he will sue us for criminal damage, theft and trespassing if we touch the sign. Where do we stand from a legal point of view?

I just want to be paid, as we put a lot of effort into his work, and he's clearly doing his best to rip us off. I now believe he's just going to bankrupt the company once he's had the money in after Christmas - I want to take the sign down to make him pay.

Hope someone can give advice, the company can't afford this sort of debt! The £250 he's paid doesn't even cover the time spent on his artwork!

Thank you.

 

[advsign22]

I am not a lawyer......

If you take down the sign, you will have nothing but the sign. Can to take him to court there and file a claim? If he does go bankrupt the claim could be dismissed and you still get nothing.

I repossessed a sign before and then I was stuck with something that I could not re-use.

See if his company has anything of value that the guy could be willing to barter. At least you will get something.

Ken

 

[Dave Drane]

Hi Signtek and welcome to Signs 101. If you do some searches here you will find that I am pretty sure you can't touch the signs.. I am not sure about the UK, but I do know that in the USA and Australia it is definately a no go zone. You could end up in big trouble if it was proved you touched the signs..

 

[vinylbarry]

I Know that when you install a sign it becomes part of the building and hence you cannot take it down or back with out permission.
Thats the law around here you would have to ask your local law enforcement.
I do know if you think hes going under go file a claim against the company asap so you are first in line.

 

[signage]

You need to talk to your Lawyer! People are answering form all around this planet and laws are different in each area!

 

[andy]

The window graphics are not going to be easy to remove so leave them in place.... the £250 you have been paid covers this part of the project.

As for the rest.... if the customer can't or won't pay for them then pop along on a Sunday morning and take down your signs.

If your customer is in the shop when you roll up and start ripping down the signs they will call the Old Bill. Plod will ask you to stop removal in order to prevent a breach of the peace- nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the case, just an issue of public order.

If the signs are down, in the van and back at your workshop before the customer notices then Plod will tell your customer it's a civil matter and not something they will follow up on. As long as there is no screaming and shouting on the high street the Police will not wish to become involved.

As far as the customers threats are concerned;

Criminal damage will not occur if you carefully remove your external signs. The digi prints would have to be ripped off- but you are leaving these because of the £250 paid.

Theft- you are removing goods which under the terms of the contract have never left your ownership- the signs have never been your customers property because they failed to pay for the goods. Legal title was not transferred and your customer is in clear breach of contract. Trying to get the Police to prosecute you for "stealing" goods which have always been your property is fanciful.

Trespass- if the customer rents a shop on the high street they do not own the building and may no sue you for trespass. Only the property or landowner can sue for trespass. If you can access and remove your signs from the road and pavement then this is public land which your customer does not own and cannot prevent you from moving over freely.

Your customer doesn't want to pay or just doesn't have any money. There are three strategies;

1) Try and work out a deal/ discount to exit with as much money as possible.
2) Sue through the small claims court; this takes time and you may end up as just another unsecured creditor.
3) Decide the customer is NEVER going to pay you and decide to at least deny them the luxury of using signs which were made with your money.

If there is no hope of getting paid I would take option 3 without any qualms.

 

[BobM]

Welcome from Cape of Cod to Signs 101. Losing money when your customer is benefiting from your work is a hard pill to swallow. I would do some shopping at his store and ask for payment at the checkout register. The worst that will happen is he won't call you again.

 

[BargainSigns]

Just a thought,

If you are not allowed to remove the signs are you within the limits of the law to ADD signs over the window graphics? Use the cheapest stuff you can find, no laminate etc. The message could be advertise something along the lines of social responsability. Aides prevention, equality for all, etc etc etc.

He doesn't get to use your sign, you are not left with a sign you can't use and you are using close to the same amount of labor you would use to rip them off.

Just a thought.
Marianna

 

[Pat Whatley]

If you take it down and he really is going broke there's no chance he'll pay you what he owes you.

If you leave it up and he really is going broke there's a slight chance he's going to pay you.

If you leave it up and he's actually got money then you can eventually get it.

I'd personally leave it up but hound him for payment daily.

As far as the legality of it Signage is right, you need to find out what the laws are in your neck of the woods.

 

[jiarby]

Get paid BEFORE doing the install.
-The guys has his money, but wants his sign so he pays you. Win Win

Install sign but give time to pay.
-The guy has his money AND his sign. What's not to love. Now it feels like he is paying but not getting anything because he already has it. Win for him at first, but lose eventually because he doesn't like writing checks for stuff he already has. For you... just LOSE. You lose even if you eventually get paid because you have lost the use of your working capital, and if you have to hassle the guy he is going to avoid you and you lose the customer.

It makes customers happy to exchange money for goods and services. Give him what he wants: A sign that will increase his visibility and sales, plus that warm fuzzy feeling of getting something of valuable for his hard earned money.


It is likely illegal to take the sign unless you have an explicit contract that stipulates conditions and remedies in the event of a default. He COULD suffer an ugly midnight paintball accident.

Let's say you are hungry. You go to the grocery store and they let you take whatever you want and you just pay at the end of the month. Woo hoo, you eat alot, but at the end of the month that bill comes in and now you have to pay that bill, but you already ate the food! Now you dread paying the bill because you are giving away your money but not getting anything. PLUS... you probably spent more than you would have because it felt free!

 

[Steve Werner]

If you really believe that he's going out of business the earlier suggestion of bartering might be a good one. We've done that with customers in the past. It helps to soften the sting.

 

[Mosh]

Just go in his business and ask him for the money or barter something of the same value he has in the store. When he tells you he can't pay calmly tell him you need to have the sign back then. Stay calm, stay cool. Remember it may not be his fault he was raised to be a deadbeat. The most important thing is to go there. Phone calls do not work, and STAY CALM. Don't freak out and hit the guy and end up in jail like I did.

 

[Circleville Signs]

I gotta hear THAT story...


Gary

 

[Billct2]

can I take it down...?!

Not here, at least not legally

 

[Custom Bob]

Sounds like your screwed if he's going bankrupt.
The only thing you can do is put a lien on him.
Then you still will get jerked around, but it will ruin his credit if he still has any.
Chalk it up to lesson learned and just make sure to get 50% down on all the jobs you have to tie up a lot of money on materials.
Then, ALWAYS make sure to get cash in hand before handing the finished product over to the customer.

 

[btropical.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_VbsCS97EA quit being a cry baby go get your money

 

[brian oliver]

How about this?

Go into his store and start walking out with stuff. It doesn't matter what...anything and everything you can carry. When he or a clerk stops you, you simply explain that you're purchasing the goods under the same payment plan he bought your sign with--"Take now, pay later".

Hey, it MIGHT work.

 

[westpointsigns]

All I know is I got stiffed by an auto dealership in my town. ( Me and a lot of other businesses). EVERYONE found out about it AFTER THEY FILED BANKRUPTCY and NO ONE HAS SEEN A CENT. I would get the sign back if I were you, maybe you can recycle it to some extent. And if you do REPO your sign put a banner up in place of it saying..." I DIDN"T PAY MY BILL SO MY SIGN GOT REPOESSED".
I saw that in a SIGNS OF THE TIMES Magazine. That company got paid after they did that.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Gino]

First of all.... welcome from Pennsylvania.........

signage and Custom Bob have the best advice for you. Check legally first what you can and can't do or you could be in for a heap more trouble than you're bargaining for.

You're third paragraph around here.... is the law. I don't know how England works, but once the sign is installed, it belongs to that person regardless of payment being made or not and I do believe he has more power than you and you can very conceivably get fined, arrested and even a criminal record for the amount of money the signs are worth, for stealing them.

I too, would chalk this up as RULE #1 on your shop policy board. 50% deposit and balance upon completion. No if's and's or but's. It's the law in your shop... on your turf so they either pay or get lost.

 

[Brandon708]

This is a classic story that all us sign guys have gone through. It's sad that you can't just go and repo it. Car finance companies got that down right.

I had a guy who owned a brewery call me to put up some Lexan faces that where on the ground infront of his restaurant. I know the brewery and could of sworn that they where already up but I really didn't remember. Anyways I go to install them and the guy asks me to put these locks on that he bought at Home Depot because he says he wants to protect the sign aginst "vandals" I thought that was weird because the sign had to be atleast 15' off the ground and a pretty big sign and I thought to myself that they would not be able to reach it without a bucket truck.

Anyways right when I was starting the install I get a phone call from a fellow sign guy that saw my van at location. He warned me that he didn't pay for that sign and the sign company that made it took it down because he wasn't going to pay. He warned me to be careful with that guy and make sure to get payment first. I thanked him for the call. I asked to see the manager and gave him the money back and I didn't put up the sign.

I didn't want to contribute to aiding this deadbeat and hoped that he would be forced to pay the company that origanly made the sign. I don't know if it worked but I saw the sign up a week later.

it sucks. Try to get 50% upon order and the other half upon completion.

-Brandon