Cutter or Router: Colex v Shop Sabre

[Notarealsignguy]

If you're not using vinyl, what about a laser?

 

[CanuckSigns]

Are you talking about normal Aluminium or Aluminium composite?

If it's aluminium (not composite) i would be looking at the shop sabre pro. Not that the colex can't do it, it's more the fact you're doing a lot of volume and that would suite a proper router.
The colex can do the job, but the sabre would be faster.
Because the colex has the belt, and if you're cutting aluminium, you'll be doing it on top of the sacrificial mat, which means you cannot advance it forward.
The vacuum is quite powerful, but i don't think it would have been dialled in properly.
Also means aluminium will get stuck to it.

if it's ACM, then id use the colex.

Yes this is another issue with a belt fed router, our summa does the same, when it advances the sheet, it never picks up exactly where it left off and will always leave a small nick or divit on the transition point, it would be super noticeable on a small parking sign for sure.

 

[CanuckSigns]

If you're not using vinyl, what about a laser?

I would think a laser would give you very sloppy edges, anytime I've had metal laser cut there is usually slag and scorch all 9ver the edges that need to be sanded or filed off

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I would think a laser would give you very sloppy edges, anytime I've had metal laser cut there is usually slag and scorch all 9ver the edges that need to be sanded or filed off

I think you're thinking about a plasma cutter.

 

[Signed Out]

Are you talking about normal Aluminium or Aluminium composite?

If it's aluminium (not composite) i would be looking at the shop sabre pro. Not that the colex can't do it, it's more the fact you're doing a lot of volume and that would suite a proper router.
The colex can do the job, but the sabre would be faster.
Because the colex has the belt, and if you're cutting aluminium, you'll be doing it on top of the sacrificial mat, which means you cannot advance it forward.
The vacuum is quite powerful, but i don't think it would have been dialled in properly.
Also means aluminium will get stuck to it.

if it's ACM, then id use the colex.

I'm talking aluminum specifically. We use a lot of acm as well, I figure if it can cut aluminum well than acm is a no brainer. As for the conveyor, shouldn't need to advance anything when cutting aluminum or other sheets, it's a 10x5 table. I know about the cutting mat, I think the bigger drawback here might be not having a planeable sacrificial board? I read some issues with table mapping on colex. I think this is used in lieu of machining the sacrificial board for perfectly flat surface. As for aluminum debris in the belt... that is a concern I have, not sure if it's an issue in reality though.

 

[Signed Out]

If you're not using vinyl, what about a laser?

Yes this is another issue with a belt fed router, our summa does the same, when it advances the sheet, it never picks up exactly where it left off and will always leave a small nick or divit on the transition point, it would be super noticeable on a small parking sign for sure.

Are you advancing sheet goods with the conveyor because the table is smaller than the sheet? I don't see this being an issue on 10x5 table. But does this happen for you with roll to roll too?

 

[Signed Out]

If you're not using vinyl, what about a laser?

We are applying printed/laminated vinyl before cutting.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I think you're thinking about a plasma cutter.

You might be right, I must be thinking of plasma, those cuts look great!

 

[CanuckSigns]

Are you advancing sheet goods with the conveyor because the table is smaller than the sheet? I don't see this being an issue on 10x5 table. But does this happen for you with roll to roll too?

It happens less when the cutter has registration marks to read as it will align itself better, but if just doing cut vinyl yes it happens there too

 

[Terrance the Deuce]

The Colex is great for everything we do, except aluminum. We do printed boards, vinyl decals, cut letters from ultra, pvc, gator, etc.... It's great for all that. Aluminum is the only material that is frustrating. It can do it, but not with any great speed, especially with the added variable of being pre-mounted with vinyl. If your primary need is routering aluminum, I'd check other options. Also, I would highly recommend you see in person or at least a video of whatever equipment doing exactly what you want it to do (small pieces of vinyl mounted aluminum at all thicknesses) before you buy it. Make sure it can do what you need at the quality you need it and in the time frame you require. Whether it's printers, routers, plotters, whatever, in my experience, the salesman will just say yes.

 

[parrott]

The Colex is great for everything we do, except aluminum. We do printed boards, vinyl decals, cut letters from ultra, pvc, gator, etc.... It's great for all that. Aluminum is the only material that is frustrating. It can do it, but not with any great speed, especially with the added variable of being pre-mounted with vinyl. If your primary need is routering aluminum, I'd check other options. Also, I would highly recommend you see in person or at least a video of whatever equipment doing exactly what you want it to do (small pieces of vinyl mounted aluminum at all thicknesses) before you buy it. Make sure it can do what you need at the quality you need it and in the time frame you require. Whether it's printers, routers, plotters, whatever, in my experience, the salesman will just say yes.

Terrance is exactly right. We do tons of aluminum and ACM but it is always a pain. When we buy .080 reflective sheets from Grimco and print direct and route it does a great job. But when you print/laminate/mount it is quite the mess. We have tried up flute, down flute and all sizes of bits and it still makes a mess. Lots of cleaning and gumming up from the decal and laminate. Don’t know if a Sabre or another industrial router would cut it cleaner but I would think it’s just the nature of the beast.

All in all Colex makes a fantastic machine. It is very diverse in what it can do. We have one exclusively for routing and another just for cutting. You can’t go wrong with their machine just don’t know if it will achieve what you are looking for.

Hard decision to make. For your volume I would do some more research. Don’t know where to tell you to look but see how other suppliers are doing it.

 

[Pauly]

I'm talking aluminum specifically. We use a lot of acm as well, I figure if it can cut aluminum well than acm is a no brainer. As for the conveyor, shouldn't need to advance anything when cutting aluminum or other sheets, it's a 10x5 table. I know about the cutting mat, I think the bigger drawback here might be not having a planeable sacrificial board? I read some issues with table mapping on colex. I think this is used in lieu of machining the sacrificial board for perfectly flat surface. As for aluminum debris in the belt... that is a concern I have, not sure if it's an issue in reality though.

The table is very flat on the colex. It's actually milled by the machine itself. (kind of)
They attach a gantry to it and mill it flat and mill the vacuum channels.

But if its mostly aluminium, id still go towards a cnc. not that the colex can't do it, its just messier and harder to clean on a belt. and with that much aluminium, you want a sprayer or air at least. im pretty sure you could get air on the colex. ask them.

The belt comment is more for moving the stock off the table onto a bench or something. great for corplast etc, auto unload, and just reload. point was, you can't do that with the sacrificial mat.

 

[Signed Out]

The Colex is great for everything we do, except aluminum. We do printed boards, vinyl decals, cut letters from ultra, pvc, gator, etc.... It's great for all that. Aluminum is the only material that is frustrating. It can do it, but not with any great speed, especially with the added variable of being pre-mounted with vinyl. If your primary need is routering aluminum, I'd check other options. Also, I would highly recommend you see in person or at least a video of whatever equipment doing exactly what you want it to do (small pieces of vinyl mounted aluminum at all thicknesses) before you buy it. Make sure it can do what you need at the quality you need it and in the time frame you require. Whether it's printers, routers, plotters, whatever, in my experience, the salesman will just say yes.

Thanks for your feedback. What is it about being premounted with vinyl that makes routering the aluminum more difficult? Would this be the same for any router? Or do you think lack of misting or weak dust collection to be contributing?

 

[Signed Out]

Terrance is exactly right. We do tons of aluminum and ACM but it is always a pain. When we buy .080 reflective sheets from Grimco and print direct and route it does a great job. But when you print/laminate/mount it is quite the mess. We have tried up flute, down flute and all sizes of bits and it still makes a mess. Lots of cleaning and gumming up from the decal and laminate. Don’t know if a Sabre or another industrial router would cut it cleaner but I would think it’s just the nature of the beast.

All in all Colex makes a fantastic machine. It is very diverse in what it can do. We have one exclusively for routing and another just for cutting. You can’t go wrong with their machine just don’t know if it will achieve what you are looking for.

Hard decision to make. For your volume I would do some more research. Don’t know where to tell you to look but see how other suppliers are doing it.

Interesting that reflective aluminum from grimco doesn't give you an issue but when you apply vinyl it does? Are you not laminating after printing the reflective sheets? Because those sheets from grimco are just aluminum with reflective vinyl applied, correct? I'm going to reach out to colex to see if the machine can be fitted with a cool air mister.

 

[Signed Out]

The table is very flat on the colex. It's actually milled by the machine itself. (kind of)
They attach a gantry to it and mill it flat and mill the vacuum channels.

But if its mostly aluminium, id still go towards a cnc. not that the colex can't do it, its just messier and harder to clean on a belt. and with that much aluminium, you want a sprayer or air at least. im pretty sure you could get air on the colex. ask them.

The belt comment is more for moving the stock off the table onto a bench or something. great for corplast etc, auto unload, and just reload. point was, you can't do that with the sacrificial mat.

I see what you're saying now about the belt moving for offloading. Is it feasible to remove the belt and router without it on to keep it clean, then reinstall after for longer run jobs?

 

[Signed Out]

It seems my suspicions are kindof true, that aluminum routering the way I want to do it isn't the best fit for the colex, but it is capable of doing it. I'm still going to reach out about adding a cool air mister.

I want to settle on the colex because I know it will be a lot easier to train employees on, and far superior at all the knife cutting and roll to roll stuff than the shop sabre. Everything I can find about the shop sabre seems to indicate that running it as a finishing system like the colex will be a challenge.

 

[victor bogdanov]

Is it feasible to remove the belt and router without it on to keep it clean, then reinstall after for longer run jobs?

No, the belt replacement is a 2 day job waiting for glue to dry. not something you want to do regularly if you could even get the belt off in a reusable condition

 

[Pauly]

I see what you're saying now about the belt moving for offloading. Is it feasible to remove the belt and router without it on to keep it clean, then reinstall after for longer run jobs?

No, there's a sacrificial mat you put on top of the belt. If you see the videos. The belt is grey, the mat is green.
This protects the belt from getting damages by the router.

You put it on for routing.

Which means, you cannot use the belt to unload the sheets like you would for coropast etc.

 

[Terrance the Deuce]

Thanks for your feedback. What is it about being premounted with vinyl that makes routering the aluminum more difficult? Would this be the same for any router? Or do you think lack of misting or weak dust collection to be contributing?

On aluminum, it can be difficult to find the right bit and settings to get a clean edge after it's cut. Most of the time, we end up at least needing to wipe the edges of white paint flakes that didnt fully get removed, if not run a deburring tool on edges if they were left a bit rough. When it's dozens-hundreds of pieces, the time adds up fast. Adding mounted vinyl is just an extra variable to worry about. Sometimes the board might be ok, but the vinyl edge doesn't look smooth. Now you need to run a knife on the edges to clean it up (if it didnt get ruined). A downcut bit would usually solve this on almost any other type of board, but your bit options on aluminum are much more limited. Also, you now have the added issue of adhesive gunking up the bit/bit area. The chips/dust are now sticky. This isn't a big deal on the occasional job, but if you're running multiple sheets/day this could become a problem. I don't know if a different router would have a solution to these problems, or a mister. I do know that I've encountered the same issues on both a Zund table and a Colex table though. I don't know if you're locked into vinyl mounting these jobs, but if they are all being routered I'd seriously consider direct printing if possible. Of course, it's possible that I just haven't found the right bit, settings, or method and I'm just ignorant of some simple solution. I would love for someone to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and give the answer, because I've tried a lot of stuff and this is where I am at the moment.

 

[Signed Out]

No, there's a sacrificial mat you put on top of the belt. If you see the videos. The belt is grey, the mat is green.
This protects the belt from getting damages by the router.

You put it on for routing.

Which means, you cannot use the belt to unload the sheets like you would for coropast etc.

Yes I understand about the mat. I'm not really understanding why the belt gets so messy with the mat on top. But everyone is saying the same thing, that it does.