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Cutter or Router: Colex v Shop Sabre

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
Yes I understand about the mat. I'm not really understanding why the belt gets so messy with the mat on top. But everyone is saying the same thing, that it does.
Well the mat will get messy. then you need to vacuum it clean, which gets harder with aluminium shavings.
When you remove the mat, there's chances the aluminium will make it to the belt.

Honesty, you should get a demo. It will really tell you if it's the machine for you.

Out of all the flatbed cutters, the colex is the more robust one. It's a rack and pinion drive rather than a belt drive.
 

Ryze Signs

New Member
Get a fiber laser if you can. We use a 3kw Laguna fiber laser for aluminum, and a 250w CO2 laser for acrylic. The only time I fire up the router is for ACM, polycarbonate, and 3D work. All my channel letters are made with aluminum backs, so I only fire up the router about once a week.

The fiber laser cuts .040 aluminum with no visible burn marks or slag at 20in/s. I get clean cuts all the way to .090. Thicker than that and I have to remove a bit of slag. The sheet just sits on the table, and my straight parts can share edges for no waste.

Routers are slow, noisy, messy, and annoying to hold workpieces ( I have yet to use a vacuum table that can hold small parts well.)
 

ikarasu

Active Member
We use a multicam - It does aluminum great, and print and cut aluminum. We replaced our mister with air cooling and we still cut 20-30 5x10 sheets of aluminum a day, havent noticed more wear and tear on the bit... buying pre-etched aluminum speeds it up a lot.


We do lots of print and cut on aluminum - The bits tend to gum up if you're doing 10+ sheets in a row or something small like license plates... but when you're doing 500+ license plates at $10 a pop, a $50 bit means nothing.

It's expensive, but IMO worth it - If we were to get another cutter...we'd upgrade our multicam to the apex.
 

Signed Out

New Member
Get a fiber laser if you can. We use a 3kw Laguna fiber laser for aluminum, and a 250w CO2 laser for acrylic. The only time I fire up the router is for ACM, polycarbonate, and 3D work. All my channel letters are made with aluminum backs, so I only fire up the router about once a week.

The fiber laser cuts .040 aluminum with no visible burn marks or slag at 20in/s. I get clean cuts all the way to .090. Thicker than that and I have to remove a bit of slag. The sheet just sits on the table, and my straight parts can share edges for no waste.

Routers are slow, noisy, messy, and annoying to hold workpieces ( I have yet to use a vacuum table that can hold small parts well.)
Can you cut aluminum with printed/laminated vinyl already mounted on it? I thought cutting vinyl with a laser was a no no?
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
Can you cut aluminum with printed/laminated vinyl already mounted on it? I thought cutting vinyl with a laser was a no no?
you dont want to cut viny with a laser.
a, it has fumes
b, it'll leave white borders/melted edge.
 

JBurton

Signtologist
We use a multicam - It does aluminum great, and print and cut aluminum.
Multicam probably does sit nicely between these two machines. They've been making 'sign making' routers for 30+ years, and sounds like they've incorporated the camera well. Shopsabre is aimed at woodworking, but with components to handle heavy aluminum, and colex is pretty focused on finishing prints.
 

Signed Out

New Member
We use a multicam - It does aluminum great, and print and cut aluminum. We replaced our mister with air cooling and we still cut 20-30 5x10 sheets of aluminum a day, havent noticed more wear and tear on the bit... buying pre-etched aluminum speeds it up a lot.


We do lots of print and cut on aluminum - The bits tend to gum up if you're doing 10+ sheets in a row or something small like license plates... but when you're doing 500+ license plates at $10 a pop, a $50 bit means nothing.

It's expensive, but IMO worth it - If we were to get another cutter...we'd upgrade our multicam to the apex.
I'm looking at their flatbed cutter too the celero 4 conveyor. I'm not sure I like how the gantry is on the longer side? Currently we cut backlit polycarb faces with a tracksaw, many of them are in the 10'-15' range in length. If I have a 10'x5' table (flatbed cutter or router) I'd like to be able to cut these oversized pieces on it. Seems it would be more difficult on the celero.

I haven't gotten a quote from them on their routers, I think they are quite a bit more expensive than the shop sabre. Definitely nice machines, I'm trying my best to not spend over $100k.
 

JBurton

Signtologist
If I have a 10'x5' table (flatbed cutter or router) I'd like to be able to cut these oversized pieces on it. Seems it would be more difficult on the celero.
A tool holder is going to make any oversized faces difficult. I can speak to the shop sabre having a simple bolt on procedure, and one plug for the tool measurement puck. Not sure if the colex uses a rack at the back of the table or a carousel off to the side though...
 

Signed Out

New Member
A tool holder is going to make any oversized faces difficult. I can speak to the shop sabre having a simple bolt on procedure, and one plug for the tool measurement puck. Not sure if the colex uses a rack at the back of the table or a carousel off to the side though...
Good point. Although at least with one open end, you could cut roughly twice the table length, you just have to spin the piece rather than slide it through I think?

I don't think you can get an auto tool changer on the colex..
 

JBurton

Signtologist
Although at least with one open end, you could cut roughly twice the table length, you just have to spin the piece rather than slide it through I think?
For sure, personally, I feel alot better utilizing the same edge for a double registered cut, but spinning the sheet around yields the same result with some different setup.
 

Signed Out

New Member
For sure, personally, I feel alot better utilizing the same edge for a double registered cut, but spinning the sheet around yields the same result with some different setup.

I read your posts on issues with replacing the camera for you optiscout in the shop sabre. Glad you were able to finally get the camera replaced a la cart. Could you tell me more about the optiscout? Is it user friendly? All the demo videos I can find make it seem like a manual process that you have to line the camera up with each registration mark? And how about how the software is integrated? Is it easy to get your files from illustrator, to RIP for print and then onto the shop sabre to cut with optiscout?
 

ProColorGraphics

New Member
Seriously? didn't know that!
oh yeah! You can look up pics of people who have cut vinyl with their CO2 lasers and didn't pay attention to it. The insides end up looking like they are all rusted out! Can't image what that is doing to your lungs either.
 

ProColorGraphics

New Member
I read your posts on issues with replacing the camera for you optiscout in the shop sabre. Glad you were able to finally get the camera replaced a la cart. Could you tell me more about the optiscout? Is it user friendly? All the demo videos I can find make it seem like a manual process that you have to line the camera up with each registration mark? And how about how the software is integrated? Is it easy to get your files from illustrator, to RIP for print and then onto the shop sabre to cut with optiscout?
I like Optiscout. I was actually using it with my Summa for a while. I had some issues with a mainboard going out. The ONLY thing I can narrow it down to was that something with the new firmware on the Summa was glitching out with how Optiscout was sending the files over. I switched back to Summa's software and haven't had an issue. If it wasn't for that, I would still be using it.
 

JBurton

Signtologist
I read your posts on issues with replacing the camera for you optiscout in the shop sabre. Glad you were able to finally get the camera replaced a la cart. Could you tell me more about the optiscout? Is it user friendly? All the demo videos I can find make it seem like a manual process that you have to line the camera up with each registration mark? And how about how the software is integrated? Is it easy to get your files from illustrator, to RIP for print and then onto the shop sabre to cut with optiscout?
Optiscout works in an odd hybrid onboard program on the PC running the shopsabre. You boot your machine, home it, then click a button that opens optiscout's software. Here you will import a dxf file (I use ecut to make proper dxf's, I believe it is available for illustrator as well.) In Corel, I make a layer called REGMARK, and add all the dots I want to use, I usually go overboard, but I believe it will register with as few as 3. On another layer, called sign/letters/panel/whatever you like, you'll place your cut path. In the optiscout software, you have to select your marks, select an option to indicate they are indeed on the regmark layer (this part is redundant, why did I bother naming the layer something in particular, but it only takes a second so I won't complain), and then select your sign layer, and assign a tool to it, along with feeds/speeds/depth/etc.( One issue I have is with this dialogue box having confusing options, it took several emails back and forth to understand what they meant by depth, offset, etc, as the translation isn't perfect and these are pretty established terms outside of optiscout. At any rate, you can set up a profile to use repeatedly once you've wrapped your head around it.) From there, you hit go, it will unload the tool if one is loaded, drop the camera, and aim for the first mark. I like to include a 3rd layer called 'sheet', like a 4x8 of dibond with a print on it would include a 4x8 to place at the origin, this way the camera almost always hits it without adjustment as long as the sheet was laid straight. It will then proceed to read as many marks as you've told it to, retract camera, grab a tool, and start cutting. (at this point hopefully you've thought ahead and gotten then cover on the lens...
The hole process isn't awful, it's just not streamlined. Every file has to have REGMARKS selected and then tools assigned to the cut parts, vs something like a plotter where you have independent force/speed/etc already set up, and your just lining up a mark and hitting go, or even better, options baked into a barcode that pulls art and settings and just works. I believe colex supports barcodes and runs like that, but I'm very much uncertain. So yeah, if you would run 10 boards in a day, no big deal, but at 100, I'd be pretty frustrated.
Still no clue on why the camera died, I need to tear it back apart and get more pictures, then play around with similar cameras to find a cheaper replacement in the event this one goes south too.

Another thing on the ShopSabre I have, it's an IS612, so it has ballscrews driving it. These things take a lot more maintenance than the rack and pinion set up, but it's more accurate and faster. If I could go back, I'd probably opt for a rack and pinion, as the servo's are a pain to grease, and the screws are a pain to clean, and I've already burned through 3 sets of bearings do to under greasing, at $85 a pop, but that's 'user error'. (these Hiwin bearings are on most cnc's these days, gotta keep them clean and lubed no matter what)
 

JimHjr73

New Member
I use a ShopSabre Pro510, Becker vacuum, Gorilla dust collection, and it is a dream of a machine but it is finicky. Also, the F4 vacuum will not work with the 510. If you plan on doing more router type things later...invest now and be prepared for later with the ShopSabre. My machine has a 10 ATC. Have you looked at the IS series from ShopSabre? Might be a little cheaper than the Pro but I don't remember. I do know the IS series do not require the VXD Driveor 3 phase power so that might drop the cost some. I can also say from experience, ShopSabre's support is top notch and I suggest taking part in the 1-day training class. All said and done with the machine, software, infrastructure to install it, drag knife, misting system, laser engraver, digital probe, camera, price tag was around 80K.
 

JBurton

Signtologist
I do know the IS series do not require the VXD Driveor 3 phase power so that might drop the cost some.
Pretty sure I had to pull 3 phase for my router, in addition to the vacuum, but it could be 220 alone.
Agreed though, support is excellent!
 

Signed Out

New Member
Still debating here. Thinking I will end up purchasing 2 machines. A cnc router, and then follow it up with a summa f1612 for roll fed materials. I think the colex fits the bill, but for the price, I can get 2 dedicated machines for about the same cost and have double the workflow, not have to worry about routering on a belt machine.

So now I'm looking closer at the camaster and shop sabre. Both pretty comparable. My question now is about vacuum pumps. Shop sabre is quoting me on a $15k 17hp becker rotary vane pump, and they claim it will be the best for holding down full sheets and cutting small parts from it. And camaster is quoting me a $6k 17hp regenerative blower. They claim that "the other guys" may have inferior plenums and basing their recommendation on cabinet makers who need more lateral hold down because they cut at high speeds on large parts.

Any insight here?
 
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