Cutter vs CNC... Colex vs Laguna Smartshop vs AXYZ trident vs???

[vectorvictor]

I was pretty sold on the Laguna and moving in that direction then I hired a guy who had been running one of their engraving machines and they has a small cnc from them that was a little older and he said they were not very helpful or responsive when they had issues. We will be doing plenty of cutting, but most of what we do is one off low quantity things. I really would like the CNC capability for cutting thick acrylic, wood, hdu etc. It's has been before covid since I have been to a sign show, but at the last one the laguna and the axyz really caught my attention. Having been in the print business most of my life I'm terrified of bad support. I've been through it and would like to avoid it at all cost. I know AXYZ has a showroom 3 hours away and they seem pretty service orriented. I do feel like it is probably a vastly slower cutter than the other two. That is why I was leaning towards the Laguna. It seems like the middle ground and did pretty well at both cutting and cnc work. I guess the other question here is, what other machine should I be considering. I'm in Alabama if that makes any difference on the service side. I really like that sub 100k price point as this will be my first cnc. Also, I will be doing lots of print and cut so it needs to register. Any advice would be helpful.

 

[JBurton]

So, for lots of print/cut stuff, I'd aim for the colex. If you're talking a handful a week, the others will be viable options. Colex has a streamlined workflow for it's optiscout, I believe both Laguna and AXYZ are going to be setup like my shopsabre, which is kindly a pain to set up the vision camera on, but it works perfectly. I do recommend looking into ShopSabre, I got an IS612 and am pretty satisfied. Just wish I didn't have so much greasing on the lead screws, but it's miles faster and more accurate than a rack and pinion setup. I'd have all 3 companies quote and spec out with similar capabilities, share the features on here, and get advice on what components to upgrade or include.

 

[nsm]

I would check out Cutworx. Solid machine. Also, can't go wrong with Laguna.

 

[electricfly]

Don’t know if having Z-axis is in your list of wants, but if doing hdu I would think you’d have that on your list.

 

[netsol]

Don’t know if having Z-axis is in your list of wants, but if doing hdu I would think you’d have that on your list.

i assume you mean a axis. without z access, my gerber smc 4 (circa 1987) could do anything you need
a axis is rotary, no?

 

[vectorvictor]

i assume you mean a axis. without z access, my gerber smc 4 (circa 1987) could do anything you need
a axis is rotary, no?

I guess from the outside looking in, I've always heard it referred to as 4th and 5th axis. The Laguna is capable of 5th axis cutting with an additional part. I really like the Laguna I'm just worried about the customer service side after hearing about someone else's troubles with some of their other machines. I was hoping there might be someone in here who has a Smartshop MT and could speak to their experience with it and Laguna's service.

 

[JBurton]

I was hoping there might be someone in here who has a Smartshop MT and could speak to their experience with it and Laguna's service.

Just to say, my shopsabre support has been phenomenal. My only gripe is having to follow up with parts after a diagnosis, usually takes an extra reminder to get their wheels turning.
My experience with support from multicam was... decent for a 30 year old machine. They'd take my calls with a fee, and could help diagnose issues and ship parts, but when the machine was failing repeatedly, they hit a wall and stopped responding to emails.

 

[John Miller]

I've been running a 5'x10' Laguna Smart Shop II for 12 years. We've had very little trouble with it and when we have , the Laguna techs have been very helpful in resolving the problem. If I was buying a CNC today I would get another Laguna machine. Feel free to contact me if you have any QUESTIONS.

 

[johnnysigns]

I run tons and tons of paper based stuff on our Axyz Infinite with vision, big HSD spindle/tool changer and the tangential knife. The Trident will cut everything - I'd call it a swiss army knife, but I know from running the infinite and the knife setup, reading the dots is slow and there's no automation to speed that process up. There's also no edge detection system for front/back cutting. Technically Onyx can print registration dots as a preset, but you've still go to program all that in your CAM software. Onyx will spit out an NC file that I couldn't figure out how to import into Vectric to arrange the cut layers the way I wanted an no one at AXYZ had any advice on making that workflow work. I have layered templates built for registration dots, crease/score lines and knife lines. It's just a lot more work than something like a colex. I'd call it a traditional CNC than a cutter although it'll do both.

My best advice is to take a hard look at what you're cutting or planning to cut. If you need a traditional CNC and want knife cutting the Trident/Laguna/Shopsabre will do it. If you need a cutter and want to CNC I'd look at the colex or other manufacturers that are cutting based primarily. Their workflows are much better aimed at getting work on and off quickly. I bought the infinite specifically for the big spindle because at the time we were doing much more acrylic and wood fabrication. Now with the printer we bought we're doing vastly more knife cutting and creasing.

Also I'm not a fan of the AXYZ vacuum plenum setup. The shopsabre's seem to have a much more robust setup for hold down.

 

[JBurton]

no one at AXYZ had any advice on making that workflow work

This was my experience with shopsabre on the optiscout. They could make it work, but anything more than proof of concept was not really in their interest, which is pretty frustrating considering the cost to add the camera. I'd say this will apply to any 'CNC' manufacturer who includes a vision system vs a 'graphic finishing' or 'flatbed cutter' manufacturer, their money is in handling prints whereas the CNC folks are aiming for cut quality on rigid substrates.

 

[vectorvictor]

This was my experience with shopsabre on the optiscout. They could make it work, but anything more than proof of concept was not really in their interest, which is pretty frustrating considering the cost to add the camera. I'd say this will apply to any 'CNC' manufacturer who includes a vision system vs a 'graphic finishing' or 'flatbed cutter' manufacturer, their money is in handling prints whereas the CNC folks are aiming for cut quality on rigid substrates.

This is the sort of stuff that is really helpful. Cutting acrylic and wood cleanly is very important, but cutting printed material is also very important and time is money and work flow matters. Having been to printing and sign conventions for awhile I'm well aware that they love showing off what they are prepared to show off and no one is offering for people to just show up with files for them to produce. Maybe I'm looking for a product that doesn't exist. I need workflow to be easy. We create most of our cut paths and registration marks in illustrator rather than using onyx, but I'm assuming that would still be just as slow in work flow?

 

[JBurton]

Maybe I'm looking for a product that doesn't exist.

I really think you're just wanting the best of both worlds. Colex has a fine router module that can handle a decent amount of cutting, but at the end of the day, I'd opt to have 2 machines, rather than dirty up the flatbed with chips, or hold up the cnc while a few prints get plotted.

 

[Aaron Hunter]

OP, for what you're describing you want a flatbed cutter with a minimum of 4hp spindle. I started at the pure routing end of the spectrum (channel letter backs & faces, routed push thru cabinets..you know sigh stuff) but in the last 7-8 years have gotten more into print/cut aspect of exhibits, PoS displays...all sorts of fun stuff. We have an older Colex and I sorta hate it (mostly because I can't take advantage of newer versions of optiscout). It does great on most things, including lower density HDU and even up to 1" wood. Where it loses its utility is on thicker (3/8" and up) acrylics, aluminum over .040, higher density HDU. Those limitations are all tied to the 3hp spindle. For where I am now the solutions we have work because don't do those types of projects....yet