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Did I get bad vinyl, or did the customer install this wrong?

TheSnowman

New Member
I'll try to keep this a short story, but I already have a short fuse with this customer, and now this is just the icing on the cake.

I have a customer that came in...oh, two years ago probably, needed signs, and like an idiot, I didn't get a deposit. Guy approves the design, needs them right away, we print, he's coming to get them the next day. That night, I get an email from his wife "He didn't notice that his last name was spelled wrong, we have no use for these if you've already printed them". I kindly but frustratedly say "I'm sorry, but that's not my problem", and she's basically refusing to ever take any responsibility, and I'm stuck with them. End of the day, I just decide I'll eat it, and if they're ok with just putting a patch over the letter, I'm willing to do that to just be done with this customer. I make the correction, two years pass and they never pick up the signs.

Then, this guy walks in and I think he's familiar, and he wants the whole sky and he wants it right away. I finally put two and two together and realize he's the same dude that never picked up his signs, that was a problem to work with from the get go. He says he's in a factory now, and he's the head maintenance guy, and there's no budget for this, it's just get it done as soon as possible, because some truck driver smashed their signs. So, I order all the blanks we need according to what he wants, overnight it so I have it the next day, and he comes in the next day and says "we're changing everything, not going to do any of that we talked about yesterday". I inform him that I'm not going to eat the cost on these signs that he had to have right away, and he says he's not going to be able to pay for them.

So, I tell him before I do anything else, I'm giving him a quote and he's giving me a credit card, and I need a signature on the artwork, he says no problem. I roll the cost of the overnight materials into my quote, he says looks good, I get the money up front, all is well, and I think I'm finally done with this guy. I think wrong. He calls me and says "the signs have only been up for five hours and the vinyl is starting to peel off." I can't even fathom it because in 11 years, I've never had a sheet of vinyl lift on me, and this is even REFLECTIVE that grabs at any ounce of contact.

So I stop by today and check it out, and sure enough, it's doing this on the right side of all of the signs. They were printed by Signs365 and it's Oracal reflective. My question is, has anyone seen this before? I guess the easy out would be to blame it on how they installed it, but I've never seen any vinyl do this before, even if they did tighten the snot out of it. I suppose a bad batch could be possible, but why only on the right side? Because you would think it'd pull on both sides if it was from tightening. Is that just a happenstance that it's like that?
 

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CanuckSigns

Active Member
They over tightened the bolts, probably put them on with an impact gun., can you trim around the washer with a knife and reset the vinyl? Other than that there is no real way to fix it.

it's 100% the clients fault, they over tightened them, but judging by your stories, they will never see it that way.
 
Most definetley over tightened. The painted aluminum surface might be causing it to not adhere as well. But they definetly over tightened. You also should always use a fabric washer between the metal washer and the vinyl. This will help the metal washer to spin on top instead of digging in and twisting the vinyl.
 

TheSnowman

New Member
I guess I might as well cut it and try to re-set it on there...I have no other choice at this point. I don't get why it only curled on one side of the signs, but that was my first assumption too was the giant bolts/washers they used, and then tighten the snot out of it. It was ACP/ACM substrate.
 

OldPaint

New Member
you didnt remove the clear protective plastic covering on the painted side of the aluminum sheets)))))))))hahahahahahaahahahaha
 
I guess I might as well cut it and try to re-set it on there...I have no other choice at this point. I don't get why it only curled on one side of the signs, but that was my first assumption too was the giant bolts/washers they used, and then tighten the snot out of it. It was ACP/ACM substrate.


On some of them it is all around. And in a couple days it will be all around the bolts and wave out from there a little bit. There is not much surface area between the bolt hole and edge of the sign. So this is the easiest place for the vinyl to start pulling up. There is most likely tension on the inside portion also but since it can pull it all the way off it stays put until the tension starts to stretch the material. You need to unbolt and loosen that tension. Then tighten correctly and add the vinyl around.

Or tell him to go pound sand. If he never asked you for install advice that's on him.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
I guess I might as well cut it and try to re-set it on there...I have no other choice at this point. I don't get why it only curled on one side of the signs, but that was my first assumption too was the giant bolts/washers they used, and then tighten the snot out of it. It was ACP/ACM substrate.


Or they used the impact gun on the one side, saw what happened and were more careful on the other side. but still want to blame you
 

TheSnowman

New Member
I guess my main question is for those of you that have seen this before, is it going to continue to lift all the way around? His main concern was long term. They've been up a couple weeks now, so my guess is I'm probably not going to get the vinyl to lay back down. He didn't ask me squat about installing them, but in 11 years, I have yet to see one do this.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
I guess my main question is for those of you that have seen this before, is it going to continue to lift all the way around? His main concern was long term. They've been up a couple weeks now, so my guess is I'm probably not going to get the vinyl to lay back down. He didn't ask me squat about installing them, but in 11 years, I have yet to see one do this.

It will continue to lift, but you may be able to fix it with some clear vinyl, wrapped around the edges. But it depends on how badly you want to keep this client, they bought this sign as cash & carry, if they paid for your expert installation, you would warantee against these defects.

You wouldn't go yelling to Home Depot when you f**k up your new tile cause you tried to cut it with a circular saw.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Guess I'm different..........:rolleyes:

While the client did torque it a little too much, how is he supposed to know the right touch ?? I've seen that happen with all kinds of fasteners. We've done it ourselves. Just go a tad too far and you twist the livin' sh!t out of the vinyl. Gone. It can be fixed, but it ain't gonna be easy and you're gonna hafta make sure up front if you're gonna do it because you lacked to tell him how to do it..... or if you gonna do it and be nice to them, since you didn't tell them. When you buy anything, there are directions on how to use something..... to how to avoid problems, but there's always written directions.

We always tell someone how to do it, what to expect and give them all the ins & outs of doing certain things. Many times these are in writing and sometimes verbal.

The guy is a known a$$wipe and you let him step all over you a first time, then a second time and now a third time. You are surely a glutton for punishment.

I'd go fix it, cut your loses and tell him to never step foot in your shop again.



edit: right side because they are probably right handed and could lean into it more on that side and that's the way the bit turns.
 

player

New Member
I agree with everyone. It looks like when they tightened it the washers spun around lifting the vinyl.

Where does one get fabric washers?

You could cut some round vinyl circles that will cover the area that is damaged... maybe?
 
I agree with everyone. It looks like when they tightened it the washers spun around lifting the vinyl.

Where does one get fabric washers?

Around here: Grainger, McFaddendale, White Cap, any industrial construction supply place. A home depot on steroids will have them. You could also look at phenolic washers and life fiber washers. It's a fiber washer. About as thick as a normal flat washer. Kinda feels like a fabric block squegee.

You could cut some round vinyl circles that will cover the area that is damaged... maybe?



You will see these types of washers called out all the time in Caltrans specs Work great just for this purpose.
 

Pat Whatley

New Member
Only lifted on one side because whoever put them up used a ratchet and stood on the side of the side to do it. Ratchet in their right hand spins the bolt when doing one side of the sign, the nut when doing the other side.

It's all the customer's fault.

Back out the bolts on the damaged side, lift and stretch the material out, those huge washers will give you enough vinyl to stretch it out and they'll cover the stretch.


(by the way, I'm shocked they actually used stainless bolts.)
 

chester215

Just call me Chester.
I would ask him to bring it back so I could cut out the 4 corners and replace the damaged area with 4 squares or rectangles of the same color vinyl.
Will there be overlap? Yes. but it would probably look better that what it is now.
Heat the patches so they stick as good as they are going to, and tell him not to over tighten the nuts again.
 
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