Suggestions Difficult Client. Just Want Opinions.

[ikarasu]

Less fighting, more discussion

you could have re-done all the signs by now. Do your proofs not have a specs section to them? Ours lists material used (Including brand), size, quantity, what type of printer its on, if theres die-cutting, material, etc. Does the customer always need that info? No... But 2 years down the line when the customer says I want 30 signs due by tomorrow, the same way I always had them... you don't need to guess if it's a diecut logo, or some poster paper glued onto foamcore.

Is gluing poster paper on foamcore the best, or correct way? If the customer signs off on it, who cares.

It's not about who is right or who is wrong. Go the extra mile, and the customer will likely come back with repeat business. Now if he's an asshole about it, then you can consider cutting ties. But you wasted what... an hour of time, and a bit of vinyl?

Have them give the foamcore back, peel off the decals, and re-mount it to his specs. You'll probably still profit off of the job, if your pricing was right. Customers happy, you'll be a little irate... And in the future, you can add a procedure that'll prevent something like this from happening again.

 

[FatCat]

Ok....so i'm taking the general consensus is that die cutting is for decals, and i should full bleed print every sign I make?

That is what we do here - not saying its right or wrong, but regardless of the substrate used (PVC, MDO, Polymetal, foam, etc) we typically apply a print edge to edge and then use crop marks to cut it down to finish size by hand with a straight edge. Most times you don't have a choice because its full coverage, but even with a white background its risky because often times the white color of the substrate doesn't match the white of the print vinyl.

However, I feel your customer is being too picky - but again, if they have gotten signs in the past, the expectation was already set. It would have been helpful to you had your boss or the salesman mentioned that fact to you. Then maybe you would have been able to ask the questions about how these were done, what were the expectations, etc. Oh well, live and learn....

 

[tim99]

I dont know nothing about the OP, the client, or the overall purpose of the signs either. but i assume these signs are going to be passed around as a quick form of advertisement.

IMO the client is just being a pain just because they can. if i where you i would talk to them and find out why exactly the feel of the edge is an issue. a lot of times people get used to seeing and feeling a product a specific way expectially if they have ordered it before. so if anything changes they automatically assume they are getting ripped off. even if they are getting a better product than what they are used to.

 

[Patrickglamb]

Dude, you got hosed by an uninformed customer who expected you to do it like last time. When it comes down to it you should have been told how it was created by your salesmen or previous production guys. Because you didn't receive that information YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED. Did you get hosed? Totally. Are you completely 100% innocent of any failings? Nope. Communication is always key and if the customer doesn't provide enough details you have to drag it out of them. I'd ask them to keep the signs as is for nothing before I'd offer a full redo though. Especially if I had a long time relationship with them. If they're a sporadic customer I'd weigh how much they spend a year with how much you're going to end up eating.

With regards to Gino? I'm getting the "self made rugged individualist" vibe big time but he's obviously got a lot of experience. You shouldn't ask for an opinion and be surprised when someone disagrees with your viewpoint.

 

[Johnny Best]

Well, chalk it up as having a bad day and not letting it happen again, #30 foamcore signs is a lot of work to redo. Everyone of us has been in your shoes about redoing something when the customer complains. Just try not to let it happen again, there goes the profit.

 

[DunbarPG]

This is a profession that I am very passionate about, and yes was just having a bad day. I am reprinting with full bleed. I don't care to be told I'm wrong, usually just want an explanation. The part that set me off was the "maybe you should re-evaluate your position with the company" quote, it was uncalled for to say the least. The proofs I send are nothing more than a watermarked .pdf of the artwork. Company procedure not mine, but I like ikarasu's suggestion and may try to implement that moving forward. There's are more than one way to skin a cat. I just need to take time to figure out how each particular cat was skinned in the past.

 

[d fleming]

Up until my printer laid itself to rest, I had not made a cut vinyl foam core or coro sign with cut vinyl in 10 years. If you have print capability it just makes sense to print 4x8 and mount then cut. Less material and time for end product. Less time = more$$.

 

[Gino]

This is a profession that I am very passionate about, and yes was just having a bad day. I am reprinting with full bleed. I don't care to be told I'm wrong, usually just want an explanation. The part that set me off was the "maybe you should re-evaluate your position with the company" quote, it was uncalled for to say the least. The proofs I send are nothing more than a watermarked .pdf of the artwork. Company procedure not mine, but I like ikarasu's suggestion and may try to implement that moving forward. There's are more than one way to skin a cat. I just need to take time to figure out how each particular cat was skinned in the past.

So, now I'm the brunt of your having a bad day ?? It's my fault, huh ?? You don't wanna be told you're wrong. Who does ?? But if the shoe fits........

The part you didn't like about my proposing to reconsider your position..... meant what it said. If you can't cut the mustard, maybe you're in over your head. Like I say all the time.... take the frickin' emotions out of it. You didn't have all the parameters at your fingertips, but no one is gonna know what questions to ask or not ask, especially your customer. They don't know a digital printed die-cut from a full bleed laminated piece of stock. They only know what they got wasn't what they were expecting. Trying to schmooze them with a discounted price was basically your only out, but you chose to get all bent out-a-shape about it..... and after all of this, your company is doing exactly what I had said... how many posts ago ?? No massaging this matter is gonna make it any better. Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and either get to work or just keep hemorrhaging here.

 

[printhog]

With the exception of ADA and dimensional, most signs are not tactile items, so an edge that can be felt is not a reason for discount or remake. Does the sign have the correct image and does it have the same visual function? If so, then how the shop chooses to make it is up to the shop unless the client specifies.

Since you were using a cost saving method and they're asking for discount is it possible the sales rep billed them for full coverage digital print vs your method. That would be an ethical issue that requires either remake to be what was billed, or discount to reflect the change.

Without knowing what was invoiced the issue is hard to call. If it was just 30 foam core signs etc, then your way was fine. If it was a digital print with spray mount then the problem is in the work order not being specific, i.e. sales rep fault.

Your shop's job archive should have done way to identify the processes and material used on each job, and saved with the art.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[mmblarg]

Seems like you got a bit of trolling (skimmed answers, mostly looked through your replies) so boo on the snarky and inconsiderate! Every business is different because every city's culture is slightly different - so from the perspective of a small city in South Dakota you did what we would have done (for the most part.)

Basically, we look at the company - is this going in a museum or is this a dime-a-dozen real estate sign? If the company lands somewhere in the middle to real estate, we inset or use cut lettering on the natural color of the substrate. However, if this is museum quality, it needs to look and feel as such so we put a bleed and matt laminate on everything (even if that means wasting material for something with a lot of negative white space.)

As for dealing with the customer, I believe you said they hadn't been back for this type of work in years - if it were us, we would not have caved. A lot a materials and and techniques can change in a couple of years. We would have explained that our processes have changed since the last time they had been in and explain the benefits to the new process (durability of cut vinyl vs glued paper.)

Even though this is mostly just an opinion thread and I'm sure you are well past feeling offended by now, I do hope you feel even better and remember we make the decisions that best suit the clients in the absence of specific requests. Sometimes that insight is just poo-poo'd at though and we have to grin and bear it.

 

[AKwrapguy]

DunbarPG,
I'm in a similar position at my shop as far as the new digital guy who designs/prints/laminates/install. I have found it's always best to ask question. After about two years of consistently asking questions on jobs I have found that the sales people are now better at explaining what they want/need. Sometimes when a new employee comes into an existing shop they sometimes forget that you haven't been there as long as them and that you might not know what some specific jobs requirements are. Again it's your job to ask question.

As far as this particular issue and from your post I think that you are incorrect in doing a cut decal and applying it to the foam core unless specifically told to do so or had a conversation with the boss about it. While you would have used more material, you would have had a lot less labor in it. Printing a sheet rolling it onto the foam core would have taken a few seconds and than cutting it would have taken a few more. You could have had all 30 done in about an hour.

 

[ikarasu]

Theres other ways to avoid this in the future too. I run the print department (Also a 1 man position...) I do all the flatbed, roll to roll, and plotting.

I don't deal with, or see the customer at all. I get a work order with exactly what they want on it, along with a printout of the proof the customer has signed.

The proof says exactly what the customer is getting - For instance, if it's a real estate sign... It'll say it is screen printed on xx material, with the cutomization (Name, picture, whatever) Being printed on the flatbed with UV ink. If it's dye cut at all, it'll say the pictures will be dye cut.

Thats whats on the proof - Then I get a work order. Work order has a checkbox for Flatbed, roll to roll, And Sign maker (Cut decals). It'll have a rough drawing on it, name, phone number thats being printed... Special notes section. It'll list what type of vinyl to use (Or at least it used to.. now that I've been around, half the time it says "white vinyl", and it's up to me to decide if it warrants expensive 7-10 year vinyl, or the cheap crap (real estate), and what laminate to use).

Pretty much everything is spelled out plainly. So if the customer complains, I can point to the work order, and blame the sales rep / production manager.

If it's a unique print... like a decal, or something specific for a customer, I've usually got into the habbit of printing a small 4" x 8" "Proof" of it, and I attach it to the back of the word order... That way when they re-order in a year or so, and I don't understand what the sales rep wants, I can dig into the old order, and look at exactly what they ordered, in a smaller version.


Seems like a lot of work / wasted material, but generally throw away the small portions when trimming anyways, so it's not bad. And it's a good habit to get into.

Even still we get into situations like yours. It's good to have as much "evidence" as you can. We still tend to throw the customer the bone, and re-do stuff if they ask, and it's within reason.

We just had a customer supply us artwork to do a screen print job... couple thousand dollar job, 100 or so prints, then white vinyl backed since it was reverse... When it finally got to shipping, they noticed it said "infomation" instead of "information" under payment Customers fault since it was his artwork... But they're a big customer, and mistakes happen. We re-did the whole thing, for pretty much cost of vinyl. The customer was happy, and it probably won them over for life. Sometimes mistakes happen... whether it's ours, or theirs, sometimes it's worth it to bite the bullet and do a reprint, providing your not too busy, and it's not THAT expensive to fix. Sometimes it'll cost you more to argue with the customer and lose their business, than it is to do a redo.

 

[DunbarPG]

Thanks everyone. I never expected this much response to this thread. We have already agreed to redo this job. The main reason I die cut the printed logo in the first place was I had pre cut 2x3 foamcore blanks. Ran the logo 3 wide and applied them in the center of the blank. Took me less than an hour. This specific sign was not a re order. Completely new art, they had just gotten other signs in the past. The problem lies in the fact that before I came along, I was told it took over a month for this shop to produce a single 4x8. They had no real graphics department. The small amount of signs and banners were done by pre-press on a trial and error system. The salesmen are new to graphics and don't really know what they are selling. Everything as far as signmaking methods has been at my discretion up until this point. I checked my art I used and there was no white vinyl visible at all. The only thing applied the blank was the full color logo. Their complaint was with feeling the edge of the vinyl. These signs are for a safety program for employees of a company. It's said and done now, I basically came here to vent to some people who spoke my language. The shop I work at has been open since 1958, they are wonderful when it comes to printing press work or bindery, but I'm all alone when it comes to signs and graphics. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[visual800]

First off I see anything you did wrong. Who gives three dams if you can "feel" a print, so what? Are they caressing their signs all day?.....however if this were me I would approach them with I sent you a proof and described how the signs would be done. Full bleed will be more expensive and now that I know what you want we can do that next time. As of now lets see if we can work out something on this to make you happy.

If they come all unglued and totally unable to "deal" tell them to hit the road.

 

[Marlene]

it was a repeat order so the problem was with who wrote the order. what company writes an order for a sign and just lets the production make it any old way they want to and how was it missed that this was a repeat?

 

[Johnny Best]

I know Marlene, there seems to be a "failure to communicate" problem between customer and who actually produces the signage and like others have suggested more checks and balances throughout their process of fabrication.

This was like the game as a kid having 6 people and the first one whispers "red" in the first person's ear and by the time it gets to the sixth person it is "read".

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Personally, I would have applied a full coverage print, because I don't see the need to set up for contour cutting if I don't have to. Applying a full bleed print seems like the easiest and more logical way to approach the job to me.

 

[Signchief]

Your question seems to be if every one would build the signs this way and the answer is overwhelmingly NO!! That being said... U could have sold it to the customer, u could have caught the problem ahead of time but it doesn't matter what anyone else would do what matters is what the customer was expecting. I think it's a good learning lesson. As for the folks who have said you could re-make them in an hour or you could peel vinyl off of foam core I'd love to see that done! Since foam core is an indoor material you can expect people will be a little more picky since an indoor sign is most likely going to be viewed from a shorter distance. I think it's great that as an employee you care enough about the company and customers you work for to be on here trying to better yourself! I think the lesson learned should be to ask more questions from the sales staff in the future so you/they can better serve your customers. Good luck!

 

[Gino]

Ya know, since this request for opinions was first written, it has taken quite a few twists and turns til we found out many of the particulars of the job itself, which led me to make some assessments of the way in which the OP conducted himself initially.

I too, have to commend dunbar for not getting too pissy about things, but now that we know just about all the facts, we can maybe get a better handle on things.

He had no knowledge of how it was originally made two years prior and he had no way of knowing his method was not it. None of his people told him anything, which he also noted, they are relatively dolts about the sign side of things. The customer's side was not conveyed to him either. Therefore, he made an educated decision, however, the wrong one and it came back to bite him. Evidently, his company saw it was furnished wrong, as they are doing it over for the customer.

My assessment is not to ask every question in the book, because you're always bound to let something out, so perhaps taking a few minutes with repeat customers and conducting about a 2 minute survey with them will remedy any future problems and he will become more familiar with how this company does things and maybe improve on some of those methods with his newer up-to-date ideas.

There are so many ways to do this, so all of your responses are gonna be all over the place and some will make sense and some won't. First of all, we too, practically refuse to do work on foamcore, due to just looking at it, practically dents the crap out of it. However, we understand cheap customers and will do it, if we can't talk them out of it, but whether it's foamcore, gatorboard, lyonite, pvc, acrylic, shocard, wood, ceramic, vinyl or some other substrate, we'll generally flatbed print this type of job and then there's very very little waste. We've been doing that for 9 years now, so there's not much in the way of confusion.

 

[DunbarPG]

Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm redoing the order soon, I will post pics of both versions when it's finished so you can see the job that started this thread saga lol. Just for clarification, this is NOT a repeat order, only a repeat client. We do have job jackets here listing any history or particulars of every job...this one however came to me as new job, old customer. I've learned from this thread though, mainly my proofs will be much more specific, not just art.

 

[ams]

I don't do foam core either, but when printing I always do a full bleed, never die cut. The vinyl comes white, so you aren't losing ink and vinyl is normally on average 25 - 30 cents per square foot. Also when laying down vinyl as a full bleed, you don't have to measure, it's 2X faster.