Does doing it right matter?

[Andy_warp]

I come across this all of the time. At risk of sounding condescending I'm wondering if and how other people are dealing with print files from the latest graphic designer culture. Is anyone getting GOOD technically sound mechanical art for grand or large format printing? Like with no missing links...fonts...stray points...nested clipping masks....wrecked compound paths...shitty embedded images, and generally kludged together sick duck files?

I've attached a series of images we could file under "same logo, right?"
If you are a prepress technician or even a one man show, are you a masochist like me and fixing this type of stuff?

Honestly, I was only marginally more particular before I learned cad. Loved Illustrator though. I think you have to love it to be any good at it. Being good at it should matter to you as a graphics/printing professional.
A drafting class will no doubt make you better at graphics. I scratched my head in the mid to late 90's when drafters hated graphics people and graphics people hated drafters......so I learned both.

If you see at the end of the series of pics, that was the difference in clean math. When you hide behind the width of strokes, and "effects" algorithms in drawing programs, it is only going to burn you later on down the road.

Like when you go to print it 10 feet wide...or change it's usage over a different background.

I come to this site to try to guide people away from this type of stuff. Or throwing up your hands and just rasterizing that crazy vector rat's nest.

When I started in print it wast still kind of a cool trade. You had to know your stuff...and you were ALWAYS trying to learn more and find efficiencies. These days all I see is people trying to re purpose web ads for something passable with nasty pixels and grain and blown out color. Or trying to get a google image search item for free to make money off of. I hate it, and try to force integrity at my own peril.

I admit that I can't fix every little nuance...but my prepress tech and I come pretty close. We take pride in our work. We take pride in paring down a ridiculous 3 gig Indesign package down to a 300 meg print file.

What can I say...it's a rant!



Andy in Seattle

 

[Andy_warp]

If by any chance this specific designer sees this...no disrespect.
I have been up against it and had to do stuff like this.
It pained me then, and obviously now.

I'm making single signs now where material alone is a grand, so I HAVE to know it's right.

 

[GAC05]

Need to develop a good working relationship with the people in the company that are supplying the files.
Help them so they will give you want you need.
We have a monthly print run for a chain of C-stores that gets complicated quick with differing specials for each store, last minute changes, quantity adjustments & the inevitable editing errors. Good communications with the designers and their managers help keep things to a minimal level of uncontrolled mayhem.
At times we've helped them without charge when small issues on their end show up after we've run the prints (patching & reprinting). In return they listen when I ask that window posters get a white .2" bleed to keep from rolling off the glass and that 100%K does not equal rich black on my printer. The more they do right on their end the less I have to do on mine. Every bit helps when you have to deliver 800 - 1000 prints from 100's of unique layouts all in one batch.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Nested clipping marks are the bane of my existence. Sooo many files come through with hundreds of them. Drives me positively crazy. Cleanup is never enjoyable.
Worst is probably when a "designer" uses InDesign for a logo... what the hell? Might as well use crayons for the printing process.

 

[MKM Creations]

It really is amazing how everything has gone downhill. I work with a lot of stock imagery where I end up just throwing up my hands and rasterizing it... Luckily I can get away with it in the large format banner/billboard/flag world. I totally feel your pain!

 

[visual800]

no I have never gotten any files froma designer that didnt have 50000 extra lines in it OR 15 copies of itself stacked...WTF is that all about. I dont think these people know how to do a lot of stuff in these design programs so they "redraw" certain things

 

[papabud]

i just did a job where we used a designer supplied jpeg for for a customers logo. i am guessing they have used this logo for several things. being a jpeg we basically just placed it in a file and printed it. well come to find out the logo had a big typo.
the customer came to us saying we messed up and needed to fix it.
they didn't like it when we kicked the problem back to the designer. and wouldn't redo the job for free.

 

[jimbug72]

Wow! That's terrible. Thankfully we've never gotten files like that.

I design probably 75% of what comes through here.

Of the other 25% maybe 10% comes from someone who has done the design properly, the other 90% are mostly word documents and raster images.

Of that 90% I explain the issues and the costs associated with fixing them, maybe 60% are willing to pay for a redesign.

The other 40% I take their money and print what they sent.

Practically 0% walk out the door dissatisfied with their end results. (No matter how godawful their over enlarged raster image ended up looking)

For the life of me I can't figure out how some of these people can look at some of this this stuff and say, "Wow! That looks great!" but it happens nearly every time.

Once in a VERY blue moon, someone will not be happy with their ugly end product and will pay again to have it re-done properly. I usually give these folks a little discount for opening their eyes and not making me send garbage out the door.

 

[FireSprint.com]

Every chance I get I speak to universities and schools around here about how their design programs are missing the critical element of creation. Sure you can conceptualize something on the screen, but that doesn't mean it can actually be created! (Created = Printed, cut, sandblasted, welded, built, erected, whatever it takes)

I hate to get too political, but I think the "Free" gov'mnt backed student loans allows too many people to get worthless degrees. With all the free money, the schools and kids don't take the time to consider whether or not their degree will be worth anything when they graduate in 2/4/6/12 years.

Not everyone can be a great designer and work at some high-end New York agency. Most designers will have to design for the real world, and therefore have to really understand how their designs will actually come to life in it.

It's not necessarily the "Kids these days" it's the schools IMHO.


FireSprint is a yard sign screen printer for the trade.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Most designers will have to design for the real world, and therefore have to really understand how their designs will actually come to life in it.

It's not necessarily the "Kids these days" it's the schools IMHO.

Once they get out into the real world, it's up to them as to if they adapt or stick with what they were taught.

Although, I firmly believe that one gets out what one puts into their education.

To me and what I do, when it comes to outside files, it doesn't matter if it's vector or raster as my process is exactly the same. The biggest thing is can I work at 6:1 (which affects raster files versus "true" vector files). Now on the other hand, my downside is that all my finished designs will work in at least one very specific production medium. Sometimes there are sacrifices to how the design would otherwise come out. So being either extreme, in my opinion, can be bad.

The next biggest thing to focus on, is the design actually doable within physical constraints (doesn't matter if it's vector or raster as again, my process is the same). That's what will trip up a lot of designs. And it's sometimes not a question of simple versus complex (a lot of tricks to squeeze out more then one would think), but just flat out can't be done physically.

Some designers do care and will learn, enough of them it seems care enough to make it worth going over things and why or why not something like this works. However, when it comes to end customers (in my experience only), they don't care. I'm just supposed to handle it, handle it. For that, I just tell them, I can do as is, but it also comes out as is. Some don't really care as long as it is "as is".

In some instances, I blame the designers for that mentality, because designers will say "don't make changes to the design, this is your brand, it has to come out exactly as is". Once they do that, I hold them responsible for not knowing physical production. They only way that they can make that claim is if they know what does or doesn't work in physical production.

 

[The Vector Doctor]

Based on a couple of your screenshots in outline mode, my guess is that someone autotraced some artwork. I see this all the time. I get art that is already vector but has numerous extra shapes. Due to the limitations of autotracing these imperfections are typical of the results if you have imperfect art or don't know how to use the software properly

That being said, I have used the autotrace tool perhaps only 10x with my service. Almost all for one particular customer that insists that I do so

 

[rjssigns]

Every chance I get I speak to universities and schools around here about how their design programs are missing the critical element of creation. Sure you can conceptualize something on the screen, but that doesn't mean it can actually be created! (Created = Printed, cut, sandblasted, welded, built, erected, whatever it takes)

I hate to get too political, but I think the "Free" gov'mnt backed student loans allows too many people to get worthless degrees. With all the free money, the schools and kids don't take the time to consider whether or not their degree will be worth anything when they graduate in 2/4/6/12 years.

Not everyone can be a great designer and work at some high-end New York agency. Most designers will have to design for the real world, and therefore have to really understand how their designs will actually come to life in it.

It's not necessarily the "Kids these days" it's the schools IMHO.


FireSprint is a yard sign screen printer for the trade.

My students print everything they design. It's the best way to show file errors and excise "demons" from the files for teachable moments. As in why we don't use free fonts from the internet. Students learn valuable lessons when the inevitable; "Why won't it print" or "The preview is blank" happens. Two weeks ago we dealt with transparencies in Versaworks.

 

[billsines]

I come across this all of the time. At risk of sounding condescending I'm wondering if and how other people are dealing with print files from the latest graphic designer culture. Is anyone getting GOOD technically sound mechanical art for grand or large format printing? Like with no missing links...fonts...stray points...nested clipping masks....wrecked compound paths...****ty embedded images, and generally kludged together sick duck files?

I've attached a series of images we could file under "same logo, right?"
If you are a prepress technician or even a one man show, are you a masochist like me and fixing this type of stuff?

Honestly, I was only marginally more particular before I learned cad. Loved Illustrator though. I think you have to love it to be any good at it. Being good at it should matter to you as a graphics/printing professional.
A drafting class will no doubt make you better at graphics. I scratched my head in the mid to late 90's when drafters hated graphics people and graphics people hated drafters......so I learned both.

If you see at the end of the series of pics, that was the difference in clean math. When you hide behind the width of strokes, and "effects" algorithms in drawing programs, it is only going to burn you later on down the road.

Like when you go to print it 10 feet wide...or change it's usage over a different background.

I come to this site to try to guide people away from this type of stuff. Or throwing up your hands and just rasterizing that crazy vector rat's nest.

When I started in print it wast still kind of a cool trade. You had to know your stuff...and you were ALWAYS trying to learn more and find efficiencies. These days all I see is people trying to re purpose web ads for something passable with nasty pixels and grain and blown out color. Or trying to get a google image search item for free to make money off of. I hate it, and try to force integrity at my own peril.

I admit that I can't fix every little nuance...but my prepress tech and I come pretty close. We take pride in our work. We take pride in paring down a ridiculous 3 gig Indesign package down to a 300 meg print file.

What can I say...it's a rant!



Andy in Seattle

You find out about that stuff real quick on a CNC. Fortunately for me I design 99.9% of everything in here, so I don't have to fight that kind of stuff. I just have my own set of things that drive me absolutely bananas!

 

[GVP]

It's when you ask the "designer" for an eps file, and they "don't know how to do that"....

 

[fresh]

I work with a printer who sends me the crappiest artwork. Like, wtf? Can you print this on your offset press? Nested clipping masks, all sorts of garbage.

Sometimes I think its because I don't really know illustrator well (we use corel) but I feel like a good production file should work across platforms. Am I wrong? Like, there is literally no garbage or non-printing nonsense in any of my files. If it isn't supposed to be there, its deleted, not hidden or masked.

 

[Gino]

I believe almost anyone going to school, college, votech..... have no real ambition to do what they are training for, presently. They'll take whatever they can get, unless they are learning something important or valuable. A designer...... ?? Important..... ?? Hardly, so you get whatever falls out of the class at the end of the year.

That's for the students, where I also believe with all the a$$wipes getting into this trade/industry most are all self taught and can just barely get by and that's why you get the crummy files ya get. They come from crummy dummies.

There's no pride in this business or any other business.... today. No one seems to care and always passes the buck. That goes for the business owners and many many mechanics, technicians, designers and installers. Not everyone fits this mold, but it sure seems to be the vast majority in any trade.

The pattern makers are dying off and most people can only input things in hopes the software will do 99.9% of the work. ​

 

[Andy_warp]

Need to develop a good working relationship with the people in the company that are supplying the files.
Help them so they will give you want you need.
We have a monthly print run for a chain of C-stores that gets complicated quick with differing specials for each store, last minute changes, quantity adjustments & the inevitable editing errors. Good communications with the designers and their managers help keep things to a minimal level of uncontrolled mayhem.
At times we've helped them without charge when small issues on their end show up after we've run the prints (patching & reprinting). In return they listen when I ask that window posters get a white .2" bleed to keep from rolling off the glass and that 100%K does not equal rich black on my printer. The more they do right on their end the less I have to do on mine. Every bit helps when you have to deliver 800 - 1000 prints from 100's of unique layouts all in one batch.

wayne k
guam usa

100% agree. An underlying issue for us, is that we are a blind partner in many cases. Our customer isn't the end user. I have to go through account managers that don't speak graphic geek, so much of the content can get lost in translation. We send out graphic guidelines, but have found layouts technically comply, but practices in the software STILL don't work in production. Easy stuff too. Resolution is a HUGE part of giant exhibit graphics, yet so few have the finesse it takes to have images not fall apart. Input appreciated Wayne K!

 

[WildWestDesigns]

The pattern makers are dying off and most people can only input things in hopes the software will do 99.9% of the work. ​

While I don't come from a family of pattern makers that you are talking about (grandma was one of the best for garments, mom did very well as well), I've noticed that a lot of the old timey pattern makers also don't seem to want to pass on their craft either.

I don't think it would have been quite as easy for me if I didn't come from a family that was entrenched in a specific trade as it was.

 

[Andy_warp]

Nested clipping marks are the bane of my existence. Sooo many files come through with hundreds of them. Drives me positively crazy. Cleanup is never enjoyable.
Worst is probably when a "designer" uses InDesign for a logo... what the hell? Might as well use crayons for the printing process.

Indesign logos! LMAO!!! You sir, are a man (or person) after my own heart! Honestly, the majority of our problems derive from indesign. That's why we don't take pdfs for production art. Just send us the NATIVE stuff!

 

[Andy_warp]

i just did a job where we used a designer supplied jpeg for for a customers logo. i am guessing they have used this logo for several things. being a jpeg we basically just placed it in a file and printed it. well come to find out the logo had a big typo.
the customer came to us saying we messed up and needed to fix it.
they didn't like it when we kicked the problem back to the designer. and wouldn't redo the job for free.

My whole life is a series of begs and pleads for digital assets. Amazing how reckless people are with their own corporate logos.