Does doing it right matter?

[Gino]

While I don't come from a family of pattern makers that you are talking about (grandma was one of the best for garments, mom did very well as well), I've noticed that a lot of the old timey pattern makers also don't seem to want to pass on their craft either.

I don't think it would have been quite as easy for me if I didn't come from a family that was entrenched in a specific trade as it was.

I'm not sure, but I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about a guy that makes shoes from a pattern or someone who cuts and sews a dress up from a pattern, but in a sense, yes. These are not traits or lessons learned from people by passing on family secrets or recipes, but people who can physically make an oval with X/Y measurements, instead of input the size you want the oval. Being able to make something from scratch. These people are generally the ones who put this stuff together in the first place. So, while people who can think on their feet are dying off, the newcomers are just doing things and not understanding how or why it's done.

If you're out in the field and need to do something, you're not prepared to do..... can you adlib or must you go back to the shop and let the software do it for you ??

 

[Andy_warp]

Wow! That's terrible. Thankfully we've never gotten files like that.

I design probably 75% of what comes through here.

Of the other 25% maybe 10% comes from someone who has done the design properly, the other 90% are mostly word documents and raster images.

Of that 90% I explain the issues and the costs associated with fixing them, maybe 60% are willing to pay for a redesign.

The other 40% I take their money and print what they sent.

Practically 0% walk out the door dissatisfied with their end results. (No matter how godawful their over enlarged raster image ended up looking)

For the life of me I can't figure out how some of these people can look at some of this this stuff and say, "Wow! That looks great!" but it happens nearly every time.

Once in a VERY blue moon, someone will not be happy with their ugly end product and will pay again to have it re-done properly. I usually give these folks a little discount for opening their eyes and not making me send garbage out the door.

Nice! We have an incredibly strict prepress workflow, and actually use the layers and object palette in Illustrator. ALL extraneous bullshit gets eradicated, and every spot color accounted for and corrected if need be. I fight to get assets...but do have to print quarter inch pixels from time to time. I kick and scream, because ultimately it's my reputation being hung up in the air and viewed by who knows how many. I always assume none would ask who "designed it" but who printed it.

 

[myront]

It's when you ask the "designer" for an eps file, and they "don't know how to do that"....

and when you get an eps that's just a scan of a paper copy saved as an eps. Or an eps from a design that uses gradients.

 

[Andy_warp]

Based on a couple of your screenshots in outline mode, my guess is that someone autotraced some artwork. I see this all the time. I get art that is already vector but has numerous extra shapes. Due to the limitations of autotracing these imperfections are typical of the results if you have imperfect art or don't know how to use the software properly

That being said, I have used the autotrace tool perhaps only 10x with my service. Almost all for one particular customer that insists that I do so

Autotrace! NOOOOOO!!!! Seriously, it takes skill to arrive at clean, versatile vector art. My guess is they skewed a rectangle with round corners...and had to reshape them.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I'm not sure, but I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about a guy that makes shoes from a pattern or someone who cuts and sews a dress up from a pattern, but in a sense, yes. These are not traits or lessons learned from people by passing on family secrets or recipes, but people who can physically make an oval with X/Y measurements, instead of input the size you want the oval. Being able to make something from scratch. These people are generally the ones who put this stuff together in the first place. So, while people who can think on their feet are dying off, the newcomers are just doing things and not understanding how or why it's done.

If you're out in the field and need to do something, you're not prepared to do..... can you adlib or must you go back to the shop and let the software do it for you ??

I'm talking about ones that create the pattern, not just follow it. Hence the "maker" portion in "pattern maker".

What I meant by not being from the same pattern makers that you are talking about is sign pattern makers. I'm more from textile pattern makers.

 

[Andy_warp]

Every chance I get I speak to universities and schools around here about how their design programs are missing the critical element of creation. Sure you can conceptualize something on the screen, but that doesn't mean it can actually be created! (Created = Printed, cut, sandblasted, welded, built, erected, whatever it takes)

I hate to get too political, but I think the "Free" gov'mnt backed student loans allows too many people to get worthless degrees. With all the free money, the schools and kids don't take the time to consider whether or not their degree will be worth anything when they graduate in 2/4/6/12 years.

Not everyone can be a great designer and work at some high-end New York agency. Most designers will have to design for the real world, and therefore have to really understand how their designs will actually come to life in it.

It's not necessarily the "Kids these days" it's the schools IMHO.


FireSprint is a yard sign screen printer for the trade.

DING DING DING!!! THIS! I don't know about the free school thing, the content getting taught definitely needs a shot in the arm. I feel design software makers are partly to blame as well. in that they create tools and scenarios that fundamentally fail at a RIP. WTF is it possible to do a pantone to pantone gradient when we all know it doesn't work??!!!

 

[Andy_warp]

Once they get out into the real world, it's up to them as to if they adapt or stick with what they were taught.

Although, I firmly believe that one gets out what one puts into their education.

To me and what I do, when it comes to outside files, it doesn't matter if it's vector or raster as my process is exactly the same. The biggest thing is can I work at 6:1 (which affects raster files versus "true" vector files). Now on the other hand, my downside is that all my finished designs will work in at least one very specific production medium. Sometimes there are sacrifices to how the design would otherwise come out. So being either extreme, in my opinion, can be bad.

The next biggest thing to focus on, is the design actually doable within physical constraints (doesn't matter if it's vector or raster as again, my process is the same). That's what will trip up a lot of designs. And it's sometimes not a question of simple versus complex (a lot of tricks to squeeze out more then one would think), but just flat out can't be done physically.

Some designers do care and will learn, enough of them it seems care enough to make it worth going over things and why or why not something like this works. However, when it comes to end customers (in my experience only), they don't care. I'm just supposed to handle it, handle it. For that, I just tell them, I can do as is, but it also comes out as is. Some don't really care as long as it is "as is".

In some instances, I blame the designers for that mentality, because designers will say "don't make changes to the design, this is your brand, it has to come out exactly as is". Once they do that, I hold them responsible for not knowing physical production. They only way that they can make that claim is if they know what does or doesn't work in physical production.

We get the "do what you did last time" very regularly. It's hard when you care more about the end product than you customer. I also agree that education is the time and energy YOU input. I don't expect everyone to be an expert on how things work in production...just KNOW what the heck you want!

 

[Andy_warp]

My students print everything they design. It's the best way to show file errors and excise "demons" from the files for teachable moments. As in why we don't use free fonts from the internet. Students learn valuable lessons when the inevitable; "Why won't it print" or "The preview is blank" happens. Two weeks ago we dealt with transparencies in Versaworks.

This is great! Can you teach them also not to make a clipping mask that is roughly 1 percent of the original image!!! Like hanging off the artboard once the mask is released!

 

[Andy_warp]

You find out about that stuff real quick on a CNC. Fortunately for me I design 99.9% of everything in here, so I don't have to fight that kind of stuff. I just have my own set of things that drive me absolutely bananas!

We bend tube frame, so I have develop all of the 3d surfaces to make art templates. I have to know a 40' fabric print is going to fit on a ten foot tall radiused wall. I cant tell you how many times I have received art for a round sign that is sized to a front projection. C'mon people! Pi !!!! Thanks for the input!

 

[Andy_warp]

I work with a printer who sends me the crappiest artwork. Like, wtf? Can you print this on your offset press? Nested clipping masks, all sorts of garbage.

Sometimes I think its because I don't really know illustrator well (we use corel) but I feel like a good production file should work across platforms. Am I wrong? Like, there is literally no garbage or non-printing nonsense in any of my files. If it isn't supposed to be there, its deleted, not hidden or masked.

I have no hate for Corel, other than how it handles transparency and such. This wouldn't be an issue if the design had adequate bleed and didn't need doctorin'....but it usually not the case around here. I concur that is not the vehicle that gets you to a clean and lean workflow. I used Rhino to remap their corners!

 

[klmiller611]

Generally speaking, the problem lies within the instructor, if they do not have a solid background in how and why, they cannot teach it. Younger students have no real idea of why only what they have been told. Back when I was in school, it was a bit different, they taught actual usable skills, but that was in the dark ages when we used Letraset, rule tape, drew lines with pens, cut amberlith masks, etc. etc. That was as far back as the dark ages now. Virtually anyone today has a hard time understanding those techniques and methods, but I think it gave me a full appreciation of how things need to be precise.

The computer has changed everything. Folks now have access to software to poorly retouch photos, layout pages, and do all kinds of things that professionals only did. They did not get training on resolution, vector art and the why and how of things to make work. So they design logos in 96 dpi files in photoshop, with drop shadows, glows and every effect that they can figure out, then expect us to take that to billboard size. It is simple, they should be taught better to start with.

I was an early adoptee of the computer, and could see with the first Mac in 1984 that it was going to go that direction. I did not take classes, I learned on my own, there were no classes at that time, but I spent time, made mistakes, and learned if I did not get it right, it would cost more to do. Having a good solid precision background, made it a lot easier for me. Today, I do not see it happening.

Ken

 

[Andy_warp]

I believe almost anyone going to school, college, votech..... have no real ambition to do what they are training for, presently. They'll take whatever they can get, unless they are learning something important or valuable. A designer...... ?? Important..... ?? Hardly, so you get whatever falls out of the class at the end of the year.

That's for the students, where I also believe with all the a$$wipes getting into this trade/industry most are all self taught and can just barely get by and that's why you get the crummy files ya get. They come from crummy dummies.

There's no pride in this business or any other business.... today. No one seems to care and always passes the buck. That goes for the business owners and many many mechanics, technicians, designers and installers. Not everyone fits this mold, but it sure seems to be the vast majority in any trade.

The pattern makers are dying off and most people can only input things in hopes the software will do 99.9% of the work. ​

Hmm. I'm all self taught, and took a 40 hour cad class at a Voc school. I've also built cabinets, was a residential engineering tech, printer technician (HP's and Oce's), exhibit conceptual artist, draftsman, blueprinter. Isn't it really WHAT you put in and what you TAKE in whatever you are doing? I agree about seeing it kind of across the board, this complacency and lack of value in most things this day. I guess that's why I shoot myself in the foot every day and fix all the stupid crap I can. It sure helps me sleep better being able to look my self in the mirror and know I made a dent. It's awful for most printers I think, that if you are truly good at your job, the customer doesn't even know you rebuilt it from scratch to make it work. They look at it and think to themselves, "Man! I'm good!"

 

[Andy_warp]

I'm not sure, but I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about a guy that makes shoes from a pattern or someone who cuts and sews a dress up from a pattern, but in a sense, yes. These are not traits or lessons learned from people by passing on family secrets or recipes, but people who can physically make an oval with X/Y measurements, instead of input the size you want the oval. Being able to make something from scratch. These people are generally the ones who put this stuff together in the first place. So, while people who can think on their feet are dying off, the newcomers are just doing things and not understanding how or why it's done.

If you're out in the field and need to do something, you're not prepared to do..... can you adlib or must you go back to the shop and let the software do it for you ??

I agree with this to a point. I think talented craftspeople need experts in current design tools and software too. Our frame fabrication crew and cutters can make any shape, any size. It's all hand bent and welded. The cutters use actual friggin scissors, and can freehand 20" radius corners with a hot knife. But when we work together with all of the tools available...we can be that much more efficient.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Isn't it really WHAT you put in and what you TAKE in whatever you are doing?

I agree with that. I've had really good teachers and really bad ones. Sometimes had to show the initiative myself to go beyond what the bad ones were doing. Of course, having the drive to have the initiative usually meant an interest in the subject.

It's all going to depend on the drive of the "student".

 

[Andy_warp]

and when you get an eps that's just a scan of a paper copy saved as an eps. Or an eps from a design that uses gradients.

My favorite is just an image placed in indesign with a missing font that is off the artboard and not even set to print! Just give me the damn .psd!!!!

 

[Andy_warp]

Generally speaking, the problem lies within the instructor, if they do not have a solid background in how and why, they cannot teach it. Younger students have no real idea of why only what they have been told. Back when I was in school, it was a bit different, they taught actual usable skills, but that was in the dark ages when we used Letraset, rule tape, drew lines with pens, cut amberlith masks, etc. etc. That was as far back as the dark ages now. Virtually anyone today has a hard time understanding those techniques and methods, but I think it gave me a full appreciation of how things need to be precise.

The computer has changed everything. Folks now have access to software to poorly retouch photos, layout pages, and do all kinds of things that professionals only did. They did not get training on resolution, vector art and the why and how of things to make work. So they design logos in 96 dpi files in photoshop, with drop shadows, glows and every effect that they can figure out, then expect us to take that to billboard size. It is simple, they should be taught better to start with.

I was an early adoptee of the computer, and could see with the first Mac in 1984 that it was going to go that direction. I did not take classes, I learned on my own, there were no classes at that time, but I spent time, made mistakes, and learned if I did not get it right, it would cost more to do. Having a good solid precision background, made it a lot easier for me. Today, I do not see it happening.

Ken

I was too green to do any of what you are talking about, and I know you are ABSOLUTELY right. I was lucky enough to get in to printing and imaging when photos was still the best quality you could get. The photo tech was a cool enough guy to let me help him spot negs with an opaquing pen, and smoke cigarettes! In the real print world this stuff ISN'T getting passed down. I got to develop my own B&W film and make prints in a real darkroom in jr. high. It was SO fun. The first time I saw Photoshop I was all about it. But I actually DID know how to dodge and burn in an analog...and understood how to use those tools digitally. It's the foundational knowledge that is gone. Someone sees a tutorial and now they are a designer. Thank you for your input!

 

[papabud]

when i got into printing it wasn't even a field to me. I was a part time delivery boy for a commercial print shop.
but i started learning other things and one thing led to another. my company paid for me to get some schooling in design so it could be a selling point.
but from that lonely little delivery driver position i took it upon myself to learn everything i can.
it has led to some really fun and amazing things.
so while i dont have a major degree in design or printing i have some and a butt load of real experience to draw on.

 

[Andy_warp]

I agree with that. I've had really good teachers and really bad ones. Sometimes had to show the initiative myself to go beyond what the bad ones were doing. Of course, having the drive to have the initiative usually meant an interest in the subject.

It's all going to depend on the drive of the "student".

What gave me the drive was getting stuck hand collating 30 boxes of blank 5-bank tabs...and hand collating dozens of color copy manuals because my printer only made multiple copies of one page at a time! Cross training and learning all aspects of a thing are huge in a career's education. If you see someone having to deal with a bunch of bs from a process you initiated, it gives you the foresight to adjust that process for your coworker. When I blueprinted it was 1 in 1 out, so when I see people that can't re paginate a manual in software because it will "take SO long" I have to restrain myself forcibly! Preaching to the choir...I know! There is a lot of knowledge on this site...but a lot of hacks and suggestions of bad practice too. That is why I may come of as militant at times.

 

[Andy_warp]

when i got into printing it wasn't even a field to me. I was a part time delivery boy for a commercial print shop.
but i started learning other things and one thing led to another. my company paid for me to get some schooling in design so it could be a selling point.
but from that lonely little delivery driver position i took it upon myself to learn everything i can.
it has led to some really fun and amazing things.
so while i dont have a major degree in design or printing i have some and a butt load of real experience to draw on.

Ditto here. It's taken me twenty years to know I still don't know it all!

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Ditto here. It's taken me twenty years to know I still don't know it all!

Anybody that says they know it all or dares you to try to school them, usually has their mind closed to learning anything new. We should always be learning and strive to improve. If one thinks they know it all about a particular subject, time to move on to something else.