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Discussion Don't be greedy..............................

Christian @ 2CT Media

Active Member
Few weeks ago I lost a long time client because of my high raping prices in his mind, job was to do 15 semi trailers to be lettered in Oracal 751 both sides at 3' x 10' plus a back door that was 3' x 4'
My prices were at $500 total including installation at his premises, and this would either be 1 trailer at a time or sometimes up to 5 at one given time. These are my best prices that i give to customers that have been with me for a long time, and I think that is low too, but one day he left and started saying that i was price raping him. Later on I found out that he got the same job for $200 less than me. Is there still profit to be made at $300 - yes, but is it a fair market price?
So, was I raping him or was I giving him a fair market price?

We wouldn't have done it $500/ea unless its all at the same time... I think that what you quoted would be a fair price for that project. Under $7/sq with travel... thats more than fair, $4/sq for 15 trailers is just dumb.
 

StarSign

New Member
Are the jobs lost really apples to apples? If I had $1 for every time someone told us our bid was too high and then later we see a completely different sign then what we quoted. Also everyone has a different nut to crack. My overhead is not your overhead, my profit margins aren't your profit margins. Do we all bid some jobs crazy high.....YES WE DO! Do we all lose our A** on some jobs, you bet. Remember if you are getting more then 50% of your bids you are priced too low and if you're getting less then 50% you're priced too high.
 

tomence

New Member
Are the jobs lost really apples to apples? If I had $1 for every time someone told us our bid was too high and then later we see a completely different sign then what we quoted. Also everyone has a different nut to crack. My overhead is not your overhead, my profit margins aren't your profit margins. Do we all bid some jobs crazy high.....YES WE DO! Do we all lose our A** on some jobs, you bet. Remember if you are getting more then 50% of your bids you are priced too low and if you're getting less then 50% you're priced too high.

Mine was apples to apples
 

Jillbeans

New Member
Thanks, Nick and Gino.
I am still around. I had to get a "real" job due to being always underbid and just plain losing money on vynull signs. I switched to logo design and painted signs only in 2015 and have not looked back. I was laid off from my job in November (a month early, it's a yearly lay-off due to it being a fence company) and was lucky enough to get a new job at a bigger sign company in January.

It's 12 miles from my house, and I assemble small hotel signs all day long. These are high-end room number signs and stuff like that. The kerning makes me twitch at times, but I keep on assembling because the money and benefits are great. I have shown the company a few helpful hints :) The business is self-contained and has a router, printer, etc. We only sub out the braille.

Most of the hacks are gone from my area now. Most of the signs are printed ones. Some of my signs that people said cost too much are still up after 20 years. Maybe that was the problem, I made them to last too long. I have a few small return clients, I winnowed out all of the tire-kickers. I have landed a few really tasty painted gigs, and I joined a lettering club in Pittsburgh to try to teach newbs how to do layout, to always get a deposit, etc.

My old PC is on its last legs, so I can't pop out quick layout suggestions anymore, and I do not have much time, even if anyone wanted any suggestions or help. But thanks for thinking of me.
Love....Jill
 

Pippin Decals

New Member
Well, ya f*cked up this thread with your pettiness, .

#1 for Gino lol.......Lol another numbnut$ :p i see has to come in think they can destroy the mighty Gino :cool: .Not in this life time.... So what if it was greed,all about getting the client ,the money etc from any competitor , which it clearly wasnt ? Dont hate because you cant do what he can.Jealousy only gets you nowhere and one more customer for gino to earn business from lol........ I know what it takes to do my work, how long it takes etc , if i can get new clients by showing better or equal quality of work,price and turn around time . I will do what ever i need to prove i am the guy to go to.I dont care if someone sells a $1,000 job and i can make it ( For example only lol ) $500 material and labor and the market or others say that its a $1000 bucks , well guess what im gonna earn a new customer lol... Ive done it many times and will continue. My business has been growing since i started 2 1/2 yrs ago ,I am my own boss,employee and installer and am happy with my prices and the money i make.

Gino , you rock and keep doing what you do ,Eat em up and Sh%& em out bud...;):D
 

Wildgoose

New Member
I agree with the OP. I have a thriving little side business that has grown due to fair price and quick turnaround. Now that I am busier I find that I adjust my prices somewhat based on my workload. If I'm buried I raise my prices a little to make it more worth the long hours (side business means evenings and weekends). If I start slowing down I sharpen my pencil a little. No prices raised so high that they would likely cause a regular client to walk but probably close enough that the quick turns win the day. Interestingly my biggest clients are also the biggest pain but they spend so much I don't complain. Just smile and take the check.
 

NazGraphics

New Member
Few weeks ago I lost a long time client because of my high raping prices in his mind, job was to do 15 semi trailers to be lettered in Oracal 751 both sides at 3' x 10' plus a back door that was 3' x 4'
My prices were at $500 total including installation at his premises, and this would either be 1 trailer at a time or sometimes up to 5 at one given time. These are my best prices that i give to customers that have been with me for a long time, and I think that is low too, but one day he left and started saying that i was price raping him. Later on I found out that he got the same job for $200 less than me. Is there still profit to be made at $300 - yes, but is it a fair market price?
So, was I raping him or was I giving him a fair market price?
wow $500 for a trailer dang it you are cheap i did 2 trailers a months ago and each came up to $1300 looks like i got greedy but i still outbid the other guy By 1500 lol
 

Bigg__Billy

New Member
Building a business is about cultivating clients for services for the long haul. Consider PBS drives, they don't concentrate on one time donations, they want supporting members. Percentages vary, but around 75% repeat business, and 25% new accounts is in the ballpark for having steady work. Estimating has a 25% success rate...25% of the time you get it right and make money, 25% of the time you get it right, and get outbid...25% of the time you get it right, and circumstances make you lose...25% of the time you blow it. Having repeat customers leads to time and material work (just get it done) where you make a fair profit. Refining these business building skills is key to having a growing or steady business.
 

tomence

New Member
wow $500 for a trailer dang it you are cheap i did 2 trailers a months ago and each came up to $1300 looks like i got greedy but i still outbid the other guy By 1500 lol

I was at $500 and thinking that i was in the low end, but my competitor took that job and made if for $200 installed, now that's cheap. Chicago area is becoming a nightmare, almost lost a apparel job that needed embroidery and heat transfer applied graphics to another competitor and he was about 35% cheaper but i got the job because i can make it on time and that was the only deciding factor otherwise i would have lost it.
 

SignMan2u

New Member
We got a call about 3 or 4 weeks ago to do some lettering for a local customer. Our bid come in around $950, while the competitors came in around $1,500. I knew ahead of time their bid was $1,500, but not at all worth it, so I kept my quote right where it was and got the job. We no sooner finished that job with two thumbs up and they asked us to do another job, but much larger. This one around $3,800. Got the job and we're in the middle of it and they asked to meet with me this morning for a "Rush" job. Looked at it and and gave them my bid this afternoon and we already got the Green Light to start. They said, put their other job on hold and get this one out pronto. They went onto tell me they have some others in the making, so I just said, keep 'em coming.

Sometimes, it's best not to be too overly greedy. As I've always said, do a project as well as you possibly can, do it for a fair market price and your reputation will grow.

They had used our competition some time back as someone who knew someone said, use these guys. They did and kept thinking they were getting hosed, so they heard of our shop, called and not only did we beat their price, but their turnaround was 2 months and ours was 10 days.

This new customer will be doing over $11,300 in about a month's time and it's gonna keep growing. Moral is..... do good quality work at a fair price and you will develop a great reputation. Try it and don't always try to squeeze every last penny outta someone.
If I may have a say about your methods and the word "greedy" you have used so lightly. Keep in mind that the word "Greedy" is a word that is commonly used by many within the labor driven industry vying for a bid that often do not necessarily recognize the value of the combined labor and products they produce. Approximately 80% of the nations sign companies under value the products they produce and every year and approximately 50% open and close their doors the first year in business due to this cut rate pricing and lack of a basic understanding of the burden rate of labor and value pricing of the products produced. This practice undermines and hurts the entire sign industry in every market. A staggering 80% of all new manufacturing businesses close their doors the first year (according the federal government) due to the lack of basic business boost economics. The cost of goods within the sign/graphics industry do not allow for traditional cost+ pricing when providing estimations for a particular market. There are many factors that go into pricing the various items/signs offered from a sign manufacturer that are in addition to cost+ pricing, including valuation. Quality, design force (skilled designers and engineers), permit runners, acquired asset growth, advertising with the last to any fixed and variable expenses.

The economic boost from the manufacturing industry diminishes when the we undervalue our products due to the fact that your labor force shrinks and then your production rate per hour declines.
For the manufacturing industry (including the sign industry which manufacture products using raw and simifinished goods), every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.81 is added to the economy. With that said, there is new research suggesting that manufacturing’s impacts on the economy are even larger than that if we take into consideration the entire manufacturing value chain plus manufacturing for other industries’ supply chains. That approach estimates that manufacturing could account for one-third of GDP and employment. Along those lines, it also estimated the total multiplier effect for manufacturing to be $3.60 for every $1.00 of value-added output, with one manufacturing employee generating another 3.4 workers elsewhere. (Source: Manufacturers Alliance for Productivity and Innovation).

It's not about greed, it's about fair market value and added value within a very, very specialized custom manufacturing industry. With all due respect, undervaluing your products does nothing good for the sign industry, it only offers the gives the appearance that "greed" is a part of exercising the practice cutting the value of the products and installation by a huge amount, therefore the garage style pricing strategies practiced, hurt the economy and the integrity of the sign industry in whole. Before you use the word "greedy" and celebrate landing a single job that may or may not be long-term, take a look at the bigger picture that surrounds the sign industry as a whole. After all, if a car dealership began selling their brand new cars at a rate below market pricing, every customer would be full of joy, but the economy and the other dealerships suffer the consequences from their actions and the dealership would most likely have to close its doors.

Sign Industry Magazine - Pricing Approaches and Accuracy - Is Close, Close Enough?
The National Association of Manufacturers - Top 20 Facts About Manufacturing | NAM
The National Signwriters Publishing Co. Pricing Guides - ST Media Bookstore

Warm regards.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
If I may have a say about your methods and the word "greedy" you have used so lightly. Keep in mind that the word "Greedy" is a word that is commonly used by many within the labor driven industry vying for a bid that often do not necessarily recognize the value of the combined labor and products they produce. Approximately 80% of the nations sign companies under value the products they produce and every year and approximately 50% open and close their doors the first year in business due to this cut rate pricing and lack of a basic understanding of the burden rate of labor and value pricing of the products produced. This practice undermines and hurts the entire sign industry in every market. A staggering 80% of all new manufacturing businesses close their doors the first year (according the federal government) due to the lack of basic business boost economics. The cost of goods within the sign/graphics industry do not allow for traditional cost+ pricing when providing estimations for a particular market. There are many factors that go into pricing the various items/signs offered from a sign manufacturer that are in addition to cost+ pricing, including valuation. Quality, design force (skilled designers and engineers), permit runners, acquired asset growth, advertising with the last to any fixed and variable expenses.

The economic boost from the manufacturing industry diminishes when the we undervalue our products due to the fact that your labor force shrinks and then your production rate per hour declines.
For the manufacturing industry (including the sign industry which manufacture products using raw and simifinished goods), every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.81 is added to the economy. With that said, there is new research suggesting that manufacturing’s impacts on the economy are even larger than that if we take into consideration the entire manufacturing value chain plus manufacturing for other industries’ supply chains. That approach estimates that manufacturing could account for one-third of GDP and employment. Along those lines, it also estimated the total multiplier effect for manufacturing to be $3.60 for every $1.00 of value-added output, with one manufacturing employee generating another 3.4 workers elsewhere. (Source: Manufacturers Alliance for Productivity and Innovation).

It's not about greed, it's about fair market value and added value within a very, very specialized custom manufacturing industry. With all due respect, undervaluing your products does nothing good for the sign industry, it only offers the gives the appearance that "greed" is a part of exercising the practice cutting the value of the products and installation by a huge amount, therefore the garage style pricing strategies practiced, hurt the economy and the integrity of the sign industry in whole. Before you use the word "greedy" and celebrate landing a single job that may or may not be long-term, take a look at the bigger picture that surrounds the sign industry as a whole. After all, if a car dealership began selling their brand new cars at a rate below market pricing, every customer would be full of joy, but the economy and the other dealerships suffer the consequences from their actions and the dealership would most likely have to close its doors.

Sign Industry Magazine - Pricing Approaches and Accuracy - Is Close, Close Enough?
The National Association of Manufacturers - Top 20 Facts About Manufacturing | NAM
The National Signwriters Publishing Co. Pricing Guides - ST Media Bookstore

Warm regards.


What in the world did that all mean ?? You are so off track, it ain't even funny.

First of all, 87.3% of all statistics are unfounded and false, therefore making most of your assumptions basically wrong. Too bad. You use the words how you want and I will use mine, but don't be putting your words in my mouth. I'm perfectly fit to do that myself.

If you'd like a tour of how or why this thread took place, I'd be happy to show you, but suffice it to say, you are thoroughly wrong on all counts.

Next time you feel like just spouting off figures and quotes, do it in your own thread. Save the helpful ones for those who want to learn and better themselves.


Warm regards backatcha............. :thumb:
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Ya'll don't understand Gino, he's just looking for a pat on the back from these fourms that he doesn't get in real life. He starts posts about something good he's done and awaits the accolades to roll in. He lives here and desperately needs recognition for what he does in life... so just play along and say, yes Gino, yousa good boy, good boy, wana treat?
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Only a nickel Gino.
texas doc.jpg
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Ya'll don't understand Gino, he's just looking for a pat on the back from these fourms that he doesn't get in real life. He starts posts about something good he's done and awaits the accolades to roll in. He lives here and desperately needs recognition for what he does in life... so just play along and say, yes Gino, yousa good boy, good boy, wana treat?


Well, someone who not only doesn't understand business and signs, but someone who thinks they know me. Now, we have a practicing psychologist among us. Maybe down Texas-way and New Orleans, that's how y'all act and behave, but the majority of people, when explaining examples of how to help each other, usually do it with positive reinforcement types of illustrations. If someone needs a pat on the back, I'm sure you'll be at the head of the line, with trying to make your nonsense make sense, per your side-line profession/hobby. As for treats, I like pepperoni pizza. Can ya send me one ?? Make it par-baked and it will be just fine.

So, Tex..... don't let this upset you and you take your ball home and stop playing. Keep up the good work and try helping people. You're getting good at it. :toasting:
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Ho-ho...... same posting time. Guess we both saw that one the same way.

So, I see you have Dr Phil, alias..... Tex, at the local county fair handing out little insights, he's learned at s101.
 

SignMan2u

New Member
What in the world did that all mean ?? You are so off track, it ain't even funny.

First of all, 87.3% of all statistics are unfounded and false, therefore making most of your assumptions basically wrong. Too bad. You use the words how you want and I will use mine, but don't be putting your words in my mouth. I'm perfectly fit to do that myself.

If you'd like a tour of how or why this thread took place, I'd be happy to show you, but suffice it to say, you are thoroughly wrong on all counts.

Next time you feel like just spouting off figures and quotes, do it in your own thread. Save the helpful ones for those who want to learn and better themselves.


Warm regards backatcha............. :thumb:
Hello, there is no need to be rude as my reply was not rude, it was direct reply to your thread and your accusation of another sign company of being greedy (which is unfounded and insulting). I made the point (without being rude) that the greed is actually with the folks that cut the prices in desperation to win a bid, not the manufacturer that may have a higher estimate/quote. What's even more unnerving is that you have the nerve to challenge my research that has taken me 25 years to compile and your reply stating that nearly all statistics are unfounded are, well, absurd. You make claims, yet offer no credits for your bold and uneducated statement which only gives credence that you clearly do not understand your responsibility as a business man, as a manufacturer and the effect on the community. I provided credits for every claim I mentioned within my reply to your unwarranted and outlandish post of stating "don't be greedy" (Top 20 Facts About Manufacturing | NAM), clearly, you did not read them to make the connection which says much about your business model.

The The National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) is the largest manufacturing association in the United States, representing small and large manufacturers in every industrial sector and in all 50 states. Manufacturing employs more than 12 million men and women, contributes $2.17 trillion to the U.S. economy annually, has the largest economic impact of any major sector and accounts for more than three-quarters of all private-sector research and development in the nation. The NAM is the powerful voice of the manufacturing community and the leading advocate for a policy agenda that helps manufacturers compete in the global economy and create jobs across the United States. The NAM’s world-class staff of policy experts provide unmatched access and information on the key issues affecting your business and bottom line NAM - National Association of Manufacturers - Manufacturing Association.

I grew my sign and graphics corporation from a small, 6 man facility to a multi-million dollar business with multiple locations within 15 years. During that time, I rewrote the process management procedural methods dedicated to the sign industry providing lean and unheard of techniques for production, including color management that is now used by many fortune 500 companies today.
You have nothing to add except a big mouth and your pitiful business model (at least that is the impression if get from your poor use of words).

...but hey, good luck with your "undercutting pricing" way of doing business and putting the label "greedy" on other sign companies. You are the classic example of those folks that can't be helped to see the err of their own ways.
 
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