Durst P10/Oce Arizona/Hp Fb

[chafro]

Hello guys, in the market for a flatbed. I have narrow to the three above.

Solid colors with no banding is a must for us, looking for top quality printer with good color gamut. We would like to offer the best uv prints the market has.

i have seen the three printers working, they all seem like quality printers. I just wanted some user feedback.

havent found many users of durst around here but I know they are solid printers. I have a 12 year old durst lambda going strong, with maybe 6 tech (laser changes) visits in those 12 years!! To Say the least it has been a great investment.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[chafro]

I will like to add printing in .020 styrene is important for us. I have heard is common to get head strikes because is the heat in some printers.

 

[Nishan]

We are running the Durst 500r and the P10 250 flatbed. Anything in particular you wish to know ?

 

[chafro]

Yes, thank you for your time, Durst P10 is the one leading my research so it will be very helpful.
Are you able to get solid colors especially the difficult ones like dark RED, blues, greens and blacks without the common UV banding?

Can you print styrenes .020, .030 without head strikes because of the heat?

How is your ink consumption compared to what durst promises, they told me aprox 10 cents square feet with average density.

Are their printers as good as they say they are, in liability?

In the P10 250 they say up to 240 sqm/hr. But what’s the real speed to get very good quality? For close POP advertising that is going to be seen very close.

Do you really see a quality difference in your prints against other flatbed brands, like the ones I mentioned?

Have you had the necessity to change printing heads? I know they have many and are very expensive which is something I have always been afraid of flatbeds in general.

Any trouble with ink adhesion to materials?

Thanks!

 

[SolitaryT]

I worked with a FujiFilm Acuity (Oce Arizona rebadged) and had success printing on styrene, even though it was tempermental. You had to really clean the styrene well and in such a way that it didn't leave streaks. There was a bit of a learning curve there. However, that being said, I loved that machine and would absolutely drool over the opportunity to run that in my current shop... where we're running an old JV3... out of Illustrator CS2... on an XP machine...

 

[danno]

HP FB700
Are you able to get solid colors especially the difficult ones like dark RED, blues, greens and blacks without the common UV banding? Yes, but machine will run really slow. About ½ of posted speed.

Can you print styrenes .020, .030 without head strikes because of the heat? .020 styrene some difficulty, .030 styrene non yet.

How is your ink consumption compared to what durst promises, they told me aprox 10 cents square feet with average density. I would double HP advertised sft price.

Are their printers as good as they say they are, in liability? Been good so far.

In the P10 250 they say up to 240 sqm/hr. But what’s the real speed to get very good quality? For close POP advertising that is going to be seen very close. On the FB700 we run in the 54 – 138 sft an hour range. We are still learning the machine, so we might run a test print or 2 to verify colour/quality.

Do you really see a quality difference in your prints against other flatbed brands, like the ones I mentioned? Haven’t compared to other brands mentioned.

Have you had the necessity to change printing heads? I know they have many and are very expensive which is something I have always been afraid of flatbeds in general. N/A at this point.

Side Note – Our machine just arrived in December. We are still learning it. I have sent our Eye One out for recertification and will be redoing the canned profiles.

 

[chafro]

solitary, Danno, thanks for the feedback. Very helpfull.
You guys think a production of thousands of .020 styrene boards doable? Fuji and HP?

 

[artbot]

when bringing up thousands of a certain board type, keep i mind that a belt feed flatbed is much
easier to run than true flatbed that needs to run back to zero in order to run the next print.

i've had both and i can't believe that i prefer the belt feed but i do.

 

[the graphics co]

Durst all the way.

 

[growler]

when bringing up thousands of a certain board type, keep i mind that a belt feed flatbed is much
easier to run than true flatbed that needs to run back to zero in order to run the next print.

i've had both and i can't believe that i prefer the belt feed but i do.

This is a very valid point, but also note that the Océ XT series will let you print 1 side of the bed while you get 2nd side ready and chop and change from there. I run a belt feed UV at the moment and am about to decommission it so have had my feet in both beds as such.

The FB 5/700 vs the Océ 4/540/60/80 GT/XT is a hard thing. The FB, especially the 700 is a production workhorse, feed me feed me feed me, 6 colour or 4 plus white. This thing is made for chewing boards through at a great rate.
If speed is not as much of a concern then the quality of the Océ comes into play, 4 colour variiable drop + white + varnish, this is one impressive machine. It's still no slouch in the speed department, but a little slower than the HP.

As for inks, the new Océ 258, all I can say is I was stunned at how vibrant the sample were for their 'reduced' colour gamut, so much so that that's the ink we are going with.

Ink usage per sq. Oce wins by about 30% less, but then the inks cost more, but you are only using 4 colours, but but but. I have real world test data of all of the big machines and they all are comparable really. I'm sure if it was broken down to costs per sq it would all be very very close.



I Chose Océ 460 in the end over a FB 700, the slightly slower speed with higher print quality and full time W + V was the decider in the end for me, local support for HP/Océ was the same as were supplies.

I can't comment on the Durst, was never an option in my neck of the world.


Good luck with what ever you choose, you seem to be doing your homework so I am sure you will make the choice that suits you best!

 

[Nishan]

p10 ink costs

Edit...
Ink costs....

1 euro sqm p10
70 euro cents sqm rho 500 r

HP FB700 DURST P10
Are yoally the difficult ones like dark RED, blues, greens and blacks without the common UV banding? Yes, but machine will run really slow. About ½ of posted speed. There is a push colour option, which prints cyk 100% and M 200%. Which gives better Red. U need to profile. No problem with speed.

Can you print styrenes .020, .030 without head strikes because of the heat? .020 styrene some difficulty, .030 styrene non yet. Not sure what u mean by styrene, we do a lot of reverse print on .75mm pst. For the best backlits out there.

How is your ink consumption compared to what durst promises, they told me aprox 10 cents square feet with average density. I would double HP advertised sft price. In our rho 500r after 300 000 sqm , works out to .7 euro cents. On the P10 after 50 000 sqm, works out to be.10 euro cents

Are their printers as good as they say they are, in liability? Been good so far. Durst printers are built like a tank. When we bought the rho 500r , there was no technical support in south africa for 2 years. We sorted all issues remotely and also replaced heads in house. Now we use their agents.. great bunch of guys.

In the P10 250 they say up to 240 sqm/hr. But what’s the real speed to get very good quality? For close POP advertising that is going to be seen very close. On the FB700 we run in the 54 – 138 sft an hour range. We are still learning the machine, so we might run a test print or 2 to verify colour/quality. there is a new vario drop option that double the drop size, allowing you to get more speed. Our machine is 2.5m wide. We print 2 pass for 90 % of the jobs. But if you want a true speed .. and throw in any artwork at it.... 3pass will do the trick. At this rate you will do a 1.2m by 2.5 sheet every 3 minutes. We do not have the auto loader, but you just keep loading sheets manually.

Do you really see a quality difference in your prints against other flatbed brands, like the ones I mentioned? Haven’t compared to other brands mentioned. The 10 pl drop size gives it the advantage... also with the built in de ionizer on the head... there is no static issue, and the dots a placed perfeftly.... also on this note the white is a 28pl.. flood fills nicely.

Have you had the necessity to change printing heads? I know they have many and are very expensive which is something I have always been afraid of flatbeds in general. N/A at this point. 2 were replaced under warantee ... they are expensive... over 7k euro. We crashed 3 heads on our rho 500r , that we replaced... but the rest are now gone thru over 300 000 sqm, and still look great.

Side Note – Our machine just arrived in December. We are still learning it. I have sent our Eye One out for recertification and will be redoing the canned profiles.

 

[chafro]

Thanks for your answer nishan.
Does the P10 handle well being without printing for let’s say 7-10 days? My kind of work would be print 30 days 24/7 then maybe little to no use for 1-2 weeks and then again.


Guys,, thanks for all the info. Has been really helpful. Still have a couple of weeks to make a decision, I’m not sleeping very well!!

 

[growler]

My experience with water based, solvent and UV for longer down time. As long as you prep the machine for sleep then you should have no issues.

I know dilli/agfa/oce all have steps for various lengths of downtime.

 

[Nishan]

We always shut down between christmas and new year... thats abt 7 to 8 days.. no problem.

5

Thanks for your answer nishan.
Does the P10 handle well being without printing for let’s say 7-10 days? My kind of work would be print 30 days 24/7 then maybe little to no use for 1-2 weeks and then again.


Guys,, thanks for all the info. Has been really helpful. Still have a couple of weeks to make a decision, I’m not sleeping very well!!

 

[chafro]

Hello guys an update here,

Just received acuity/oce samples and HP samples (my files of course).

I was really impressed by the acuity quality, Hp really can’t compare on this department. I´m still waiting for Durst samples but the acuity HS looks like a promising option since its price is 100k lower and speed is very similar to Durst P10 160 in the usable quality speeds.

Any Acuity/Arizona users that can help me understand how hard or easy it is to feed hundreds of 4´x8´s in the regular size bed? I know there is a X2 size but space might be an issue. Is this printer good for high volume runs?

thanks

 

[Barry Wright]

Durst, Oce & HP FB

My statements here are based on field experience as a professional Account Manager in the large & grande format color business.

1. I have sold OCE' 250-360,500XT, HP500/700 printed substrates.

A. The OCE' brand has had ink adherence issues since coming out in 2006. They keep saying that they have solved the problem, but this is not true as of today especially on a coreplast substrate. Try a hatch test with the OCE prints on coreplast. Apply a strip of masking tape to the coreplast image prinited on the OCE and then remove the masking tape. You'll find that image comes off with tape removal. Try taking the coreplst printed on the OCE and bend the print. You will notice that the image crackes and comes off substrate. Try this test with both the HP & Dust, you will have no issue's as described above.

B. The OCE also has an issue with their vaccum that holds down the substrate to their bed. You'll end up spending a considerable amount of time per day on masking the substrate to the bed. Not so with the FB. Do not know enough about the Dust to offer an objective opinion.

c. As for quality of product. Indeed the OCE has great quality, however i would suspect that the majority of what you will print on your flat bed for your customers will not be viewed up close like a photograph. So with this in mind if you are viewing the image from say 10' to 15' distance you will not be able to tel the difference.

I say HP or Durst...stay away from the OCE...

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Océs IJ256 inks on good quality corflute do not exhibit the problems that Barry notes above.
We have been printing for nearly 6 months on flute provided by Mulford's Plastics in Australia and the results are nothing short of excellent.
No peeling, no flaking when cut, no scratching either. Just run the lamps slightly warmer than most substrates and it works fine for us.
We initially had the exact issues Barry mentioned when using an Indian sourced flute, but have now resolved the problem with better quality materials.

 

[5Star]

My experience is with the Arizona 460GT.

We use the 256 inks and are pretty pleased with them. They are a good compromise between the gamut of the 258 and the adherence of the 255 inks (those numbers may be round the other way).

I changed out the clear ink on ours, as without a clean room, the pinholes in the varnish was unacceptable. Looks great, but you need an uber-clean environment. I'm running double white instead.

If you're printing CMYK only, I'd run double CMYK for the speed increase. The double white has been a boon for white printing as its speed has increased with the extra nozzles available.

The Roll Media Option is great if you're doing a lot of pull up banners &c., but the unit can be a bit flakey with some issues with the motors (I've blown one up already). There was also an issue initially with the FireWire 800 data cable, but that seems to have been resolved (looks like a bad batch from the cable supplier).

Overall I'm pleased with its speed and quality and the service is pretty good too - our old Mimaki JF-1631 was a nightmare on the service front. With the bed being at 90 degrees to the way the Mimaki is set up, all that carriage moving that the Mimaki did (sooooo slowly) used to do my head in. The Arizona is very speed in comparison.

As far as ink adherence goes, I've had no issues. I do make sure that the surface is clean, and that I set the lamps to the level suggested my Oce for each type of media. On that point, their library of Application Bulletins is very extensive and covers a multitude of topics.

 

[MrRu]

I worked with a FujiFilm Acuity (Oce Arizona rebadged) and had success printing on styrene, even though it was tempermental. You had to really clean the styrene well and in such a way that it didn't leave streaks. There was a bit of a learning curve there. However, that being said, I loved that machine and would absolutely drool over the opportunity to run that in my current shop... where we're running an old JV3... out of Illustrator CS2... on an XP machine...

How did you manage streak-free prints? I use cotton gloves and have wiped the substrate down with a clean lint free sheet and still sometimes have issues when it is heavy coverage.