EFI Vutek QS2000 or HP FB500

[The Dotted Line]

Hey folks,

So we are at a point where we'd like to bring in a flatbed printer of some sort and have narrowed it down to a used QS2000 or ideally a used HP FB500. I've read many posts here, all with wonderful information, on the FB500 and a few on the QS2000. We aren't married to either one and would entertain the idea of a CET, Flora or the like, but we are a bit limited on space. That said, the FB500 is more attractive due to the small footprint. It seems for about the same price (used) we could get into a QS2000, however, and from what I've read the Vutek machines are built like tanks. I'd like to think the print quality is about the same, but it seems the QS is quite a bit faster and perhaps more of a workhorse.

The majority of work to be produced would be printed on painted aluminum or painted or clear acrylic. These would typically include small copy and graphics such as an evacuation plan. We do paint Matthews Automotive in house, so we would likely clear coat all work aside from temporary signage. There would be an occasional need for larger panels, but the majority of work would be 18" x 24" or smaller.

Could anyone out there, who has possibly worked with both printers, offer up a suggestion? Any thoughts on these two machines, or others that you'd see as a fit would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you in advance!
James

 

[artbot]

i'd be looking at ink/paint compatibility. the heat of the solvents as they kick can attack the uv ink. ideally, an automotive waterbased paint would be the way to go.

 

[The Dotted Line]

I'll Check

i'd be looking at ink/paint compatibility. the heat of the solvents as they kick can attack the uv ink. ideally, an automotive waterbased paint would be the way to go.

Artbot,

Thank you for the input. Yes, I'll definitely have them test the prints in paint. We've been converting over to, what I believe are, low VOC paints within the past couple years. It's been hell for matching colors. Old formulas don't work the same, consistency is no longer there, etc. So this will be another challenge, but I think it can be overcome. I'll mention to paint about water based and see what they have to say.

Always appreciate your posts - have read much of your previous work.

Thank you!
James

 

[artbot]

i looked into the waterbased automotive for a while when i was putting together this large shop. it is definitely superior to solvent based in color and durability. we had a whole set of acrylic panels that were being back sprayed with white (two part urethane). the white didn't bother it too much (we went in the end with sherwin williams pre-cat waterbased epoxy), but we then moved to a slightly different finish by the same company and it ruined about $8000 worth of printed/cut/polished panels. just the slightest amount of solvent heat can get to the ink. ...and we were using CET series 49, the most solvent resistant uv ink i know of.

i hear you on the qs2000 comparison. the prices for them lately have been quite attractive. and there are tons of them out there. that means a huge experienced user base for issues and such. plus you see the used 200/600s still selling for a decent price. so these machines retain their value and you can turn one over on the used market quite quickly. the same goes for used fb's. they seem to get picked up quickly as well. i'd bet that loooong term mileage on a each machine...the advantage to vutek.

 

[The Dotted Line]

Ouch!

Artbot,

Total bummer to hear about jobs like that. Of course I think we've all experienced them in one form or another. I know we've had our share over the years, but most recently have just been battling the adjustment to the new paint. As I mentioned we've had color issues with the new Matthews paint but have been working through those. We've always painted vinyl on occasion and then cut it, but with the new formulas it seems to turn out much thicker. Same painter so I can't imagine his style has changed...so just another adjustment! We realized the formulas all needed to change after sending out some painted aluminum panels with push-thru acrylic to match the old paint. Not even close, so we ate that job.

I mentioned your comments to a coworker (not a painter), and he thinks we are using a water based clear coat. I'll report back with more when we get into this. I'm hoping to dial in the workflow quickly, so I appreciate the feedback! I am thinking the QS may be better long term as well, so I'm definitely leaning that way, despite the larger size / tighter fit in our assigned space.

Thank you for the advice!
James

 

[The Dotted Line]

Don't mean to be a , but do you know roughly what price point the QS2000 falls in? We're currently looking at an FB500 and an AGFA M1600 (demo) but I want to add more printers to my list of considerations.

Thanks in advance.

Ahoy Pat,

Arrrrrrgh...no worries. I've been seeing the QS2000s anywhere between 50k - 70k. I believe it's roughly the same for an FB500, although it seems the QS machines are more abundant. We have debate going within the company as to whether it's really worth buying used, but the savings is quite substantial. And if these really are the workhorses that I've heard, I would think it would be worthy.

Good luck with the decision and purchase!

James

 

[Hzone15]

I don't have the speed specs in front of me. But I don't beleive the Vutek is going to be too much faster. If you are looking for any type of quality you will have to use light or heavy smoothing which in turns slows the vutek down quite a bit.

 

[The Dotted Line]

I don't have the speed specs in front of me. But I don't beleive the Vutek is going to be too much faster. If you are looking for any type of quality you will have to use light or heavy smoothing which in turns slows the vutek down quite a bit.

HZone,

Thank you for the input! I believe the spec sheets read that the QS is about twice the speed, however, I know what you mean. Is the comparison apples to apples?! Majority of our work would need to be crisp as it will be small text read from two feet away. I'm trying to find a shop locally that runs one so I can pay them to run a panel while I sit in. I'll do the same for the HP. That will give me a better idea of what to expect at least.

Thank you again for bringing that up as it is definitely something I need to factor in!

James

 

[gregwallace]

I have been running a qs 2000 for several years now. As far as speed goes, the qs will print a 4x8 in 7 minutes on heavy(8pass) bidirectional with a head height of 60 mil. The quality is great so long as the material is flat and you're able to run on these settings without raising the heads(.120). Overhead venting is required. We have had cracks in the joints of our venting before. The fumes can really burn your eyes.

 

[The Dotted Line]

Used Indeed

Hi Pat,

Yes, I was talking about pricing on used machines. The QS2000 is no longer produced (although a similar model with a new name is). I believe you're correct as far as the pricing on the FB500. Last I checked on new, it was about 100k, without the R2R. As mentioned by GregWallace in the last post, the QS does require venting and a compressor as well. We're not concerned with the noise of the compressor as we have a Gerber router running as well, so that's a bit noisy!

I have a 5 page PDF file that lists the requirements for the QS2000 (not the spec sheet from EFI) and will send that your way, if you'd like. Please let me know!

Thank you,
James

 

[The Dotted Line]

I have been running a qs 2000 for several years now. As far as speed goes, the qs will print a 4x8 in 7 minutes on heavy(8pass) bidirectional with a head height of 60 mil. The quality is great so long as the material is flat and you're able to run on these settings without raising the heads(.120). Overhead venting is required. We have had cracks in the joints of our venting before. The fumes can really burn your eyes.

Greg,

Awesome info - thank you for that. I'm not sure how many of the larger panels we'd run as we typically cut panels to size and paint before graphics are considered. Therefore, nesting several onto a 4' x 8' would require painting the edges, once cut apart. I'm not even sure running several small panels at once is a feasible option on the QS, but it seems like that would fit our workflow. I know that can be done on the FB500. The speed you mentioned sounds plenty fast and that's a great benchmark.

As far as the burning eyes - thank you for the tip! I'll make sure the venting is done correctly if we get to that stage!

James

 

[gregwallace]

The 4x8 print time was just a benchmark for you to go off of. Yes you can run multiple sheets through the machine at the same time. The only issue would be the edges cupping up but you would run into that problem with a single sheet as well. We usually just tape the corners down or raise the heads. Also you mentioned running small copy with evacuation plans. You could always run unidirectional on light smoothing(4 pass) for crisper cleaner lines but you would get banding in any areas with solid color. That would be at the same speed. One problem I have with ours is the inability to adjust the carriage speed. By that I mean the machine moves left and right the same speed no matter the settings. Also if you rip at 1080 dpi the machine takes twice as long to print something as opposed to 540 dpi. The machine prints great though. We have had some software issues but they are more of a headache than a cost. Ours is 6 years old. Perfect nozzle test. And we run third party inks at around 90 a liter. I think vuteks ink are around 120 per liter. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

 

[artbot]

new listing

http://globalgarage.net/products-details?manufacturer|25348-01

 

[artbot]

any used machine would have to match the owner/operator. many companies will open up with great dreams of running the balls off their machines as soon as they plug them in. in reality, it might take 18 months to three years to truly organize product, sales, distribution, marketing, etc. if you are just getting into a market and need to to print specialty product at low to medium volume, then a used machine will be great. if not, then the metric is more a comparison of monthly payment vs output. i'd say that an inexpensive "high end" used machine should be operated by someone with experience with that model or that OEM. that's rarely possible but would be fantastic to have. there's a wealth of knowledge trapped in an operators head. one could always rely on the advice of the user base of either used fb or qs owners out there, but that's a bit more work. user error will be the fault of 80% if not more of your problems in the first few months. you will blame the machine and later find out "ohhhh..... so when ... you are supposed to ...". one thing that would concern me about the vutek machine (may be true for hp as well) is some of the parts are outrageously expensive to replace. i've seen y-motors for $3000! so what to do? if you have the volume, waiting right there, solid for every month... then just get a new machine and pay $2000 a month or whatever it's going to cost. otherwise that payment will start to build up on you. i'd also consider outsourcing for a good while. you can prep a substrate in whatever kind of custom way your company does, then have it printed. that's a lot of running around, dropping and picking up. but it would be a way to get some experience with the ink, flatness, finishing issues you will encounter in your own nickel.

 

[gregwallace]

In response to artbot- Im not sure what types of payment plans vutek offers but ours is right around $6000 per month and its a four color.

 

[artbot]

that would be for a $300k machine? anyone starting out in the flatbed industry will be swimming with sharks. i'd think starting out new $100k-$125k would have to do for a new starter flatbed.

 

[gregwallace]

that would be for a $300k machine? anyone starting out in the flatbed industry will be swimming with sharks. i'd think starting out new $100k-$125k would have to do for a new starter flatbed.

Agreed