Employee Retention and new applicants

[ikarasu]

This is why automation is the way to go. More machines and the least amount of people possible.

Ask Elon musk about that with his Automated Teslas. He cant meet demand because his robots are doing an inferior job... He says he now regrets trying to automate everything. I'm sure he'll still automate and try to perfect it in the future... But a robot can't tell when a sign is printing bad quality/banding, etc. Or figure out what to do when a print stretched, or was designed a quarter of an inch out of spec, and the metal/coro/whatever needs to be cut down, etc.

Automation is the way of the future, but theres lots of stuff that needs human interaction.

 

[AKwrapguy]

So what does your company do to keep your best employees? Are there incentives you have come up with, bonuses, extra paid days off in addition to raises? Is it always just about the money for them?

We seem over and over to have a hard time keep certain positions filled ( installer, painter) these people seem flighty moody and the ones that have the easiest time just walking away. then to later find out they just left due to the money, and maybe less effort needed at the new job.

While others stay ( plastic dept., fabricators, designers-Art dept.) but we maybe hear the whispers of I haven't had a raise in so so amount of time, but never said directly to us.

Grudges held when new equipment or other items are purchased, to help control inventory or expand our install capabilities.

How long do you go between raises? There does get to be a point where you have almost capped out an employees pay and wont be able to sell that in the next sign, or am I wrong in my thinking there?


And what is with some of the new crowd applying?? You mention a Drivers license IS required for an installer and they don't have one and apply.

Need electrical experience, worked at BK , GED , and has never done anything requiring effort, applies for installer.

Has had 11 jobs in 8 years.... what makes me think you will stay in the job I give you?


*sigh* I just don't get it

If it's you installers that are leaving it could be a few different things and it's hard to say with out more info or being there. It could be that they're too busy, not enough resources to do the job (bad work area, equipment, etc...) it could be the person in charge of that dept. The installers might feel that the person is charge is unapproachable or difficult to deal with. It could also be that they just aren't getting paid enough.

You say that they want raises but no one ever says anything to you... why should they. If they are doing a good job reward them with a bonus or a small raise. Why wait for it to become a problem? Do you ever do any type of employee review?

There could be several different things that could be the issue not just one. Maybe ask them see what they say.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Sounds like you're doing it right. I honestly have no problem with automating certain aspects of a facility. Especially when it's something that can free up an employee to do other things.

The good news is that (at least for now) the sign industry is fairly well insulated from automation, as quite a lot of stuff is still done the old fashioned way.

For now, but the exponential curve of AI and robotics will solve that issue quicker than you think it will.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

For now, but the exponential curve of AI and robotics will solve that issue quicker than you think it will.

Nah, haven't you seen Ex Machina or Terminator? That AI is gonna murder the stuffing out of us first chance it gets.

(If you haven't seen Ex Machina, it's awesome.)

 

[ikarasu]

Not to start an argument but why give any raise to the guy that's not working hard or stays on the phone all day? Every job I have ever had I worked my butt off with no expectation of getting paid more. If I did that was great but to me as an employee and now an employer it is always in my head that I have to provide value by growing my skills, cover my pay and provide a profit. I always assumed that hard work was expected and that was the bare minimum required to keep your job.
We give raises based a little on work effort but it is more on initiative. If a person hired as general labor takes the initiative and learns how to paint or some other aspect of our business then they get bumped up. I will gladly teach anyone, that wants to learn, anything in the scope of our business.

I was a lead hand in a warehouse about 10 years ago. There was a guy under me I hated... he'd spend literally an hour in the bathroom everyday, he was slow at his job... refused to do anything but the bare minimum. My first year as a lead hand, I was called into HR and asked about what raises to give everyone on my team.

When it came to this guy... I brought up the issues I've had with him, told them I wasnt sure on what his raise should be. Said if it were up to me, I'd even drop cost of living and get rid of him. They asked if he was doing worst, better, or the same as last year... Then proceeded to give him the same raise they gave last year.

They explained that firing someone, even the most basic laborour costs the company a whole hell of a lot more than whatever time he spends screwing around. Unless we fire for cause, which you can't do since they can claim bathrooms are medical issues... we have to pay severance, take out ads, spend hours interviewing candidates... hire them on for the 3 month training period, go through 5 guys who work their asses off during the 3 months, only to slack off as soon as it's over... and repeat the process over and over. Not to mention you'll be short staffed... have to pay people overtime to pick up the backlog, which is even more money, or lose out on jobs because you dont have the manpower. They estimated it cost 15-25K everytime they have to fire, and re-hire someone. They'd still give a cost of living increase, because of the same reason... If that person leaves, while you dont need to pay severance... it's a fortune to find and train someone and setup payroll/benefits, etc.


My current work... theres some people who are like that. They make about $4 an hour less than me, they've been here for 15+ years while I've been here for 2. I started at the same wage as them... then got bumped up.

It benefits the company to keep people around until they end up costing you more than firing them would. You can't have all A list employees... Sometimes it's worth it to have a slacker around to trim banner/vinyl, weed stuff.

So I wouldn't give a bad employee a $1 an hour raise... but a cost of living raise should always be given, it's just to keep up with the average pay salary, not a reward for doing good. If you don't do cost of living... They'll find somewhere else to work, and you'll have to spend all your time/effort finding, training new people. So... choice is yours!

But to put it into another perspective. Lets say I made double what I should be... and even it out to an even $50 an hour. Even though I know I'm making more than I should... A year rolls by, and I get no raise. 4% inflation means I'm now only making $48 an hour. so I'm taking a $2 paycut to keep working there - And then next year it'll be $46...etc. Of course I'd feel unappreciated, and try to find another job. I may ask why I'm not getting a raise... And hopefully they'd say they noticed my work ethic wasn't that good this year, and I'd ask for a chance to fix it and see if we can re-visit the increase in a few months, if they're happy with my work... If they said no, I'd know theyre just being cheap / unappreciative, and I may try to find another place.

 

[ams]

I am tough on employees because I expect them to do the same job that I do and take pride in their work and be loyal. Those who produce crappy signs, play on their phones, take a billion years to make something, get kicked to the curb.

 

[equippaint]

I was a lead hand in a warehouse about 10 years ago. There was a guy under me I hated... he'd spend literally an hour in the bathroom everyday, he was slow at his job... refused to do anything but the bare minimum. My first year as a lead hand, I was called into HR and asked about what raises to give everyone on my team.

When it came to this guy... I brought up the issues I've had with him, told them I wasnt sure on what his raise should be. Said if it were up to me, I'd even drop cost of living and get rid of him. They asked if he was doing worst, better, or the same as last year... Then proceeded to give him the same raise they gave last year.

They explained that firing someone, even the most basic laborour costs the company a whole hell of a lot more than whatever time he spends screwing around. Unless we fire for cause, which you can't do since they can claim bathrooms are medical issues... we have to pay severance, take out ads, spend hours interviewing candidates... hire them on for the 3 month training period, go through 5 guys who work their asses off during the 3 months, only to slack off as soon as it's over... and repeat the process over and over. Not to mention you'll be short staffed... have to pay people overtime to pick up the backlog, which is even more money, or lose out on jobs because you dont have the manpower. They estimated it cost 15-25K everytime they have to fire, and re-hire someone. They'd still give a cost of living increase, because of the same reason... If that person leaves, while you dont need to pay severance... it's a fortune to find and train someone and setup payroll/benefits, etc.


My current work... theres some people who are like that. They make about $4 an hour less than me, they've been here for 15+ years while I've been here for 2. I started at the same wage as them... then got bumped up.

It benefits the company to keep people around until they end up costing you more than firing them would. You can't have all A list employees... Sometimes it's worth it to have a slacker around to trim banner/vinyl, weed stuff.

So I wouldn't give a bad employee a $1 an hour raise... but a cost of living raise should always be given, it's just to keep up with the average pay salary, not a reward for doing good. If you don't do cost of living... They'll find somewhere else to work, and you'll have to spend all your time/effort finding, training new people. So... choice is yours!

But to put it into another perspective. Lets say I made double what I should be... and even it out to an even $50 an hour. Even though I know I'm making more than I should... A year rolls by, and I get no raise. 4% inflation means I'm now only making $48 an hour. so I'm taking a $2 paycut to keep working there - And then next year it'll be $46...etc. Of course I'd feel unappreciated, and try to find another job. I may ask why I'm not getting a raise... And hopefully they'd say they noticed my work ethic wasn't that good this year, and I'd ask for a chance to fix it and see if we can re-visit the increase in a few months, if they're happy with my work... If they said no, I'd know theyre just being cheap / unappreciative, and I may try to find another place.

I know and understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. I don't agree with giving a slacker a raise no matter what you call it. If their only fault was having complicated craps once a day but all in all everything else was good then so be it but that is not typically the case. Employees need to bear some responsibility in this as well. If they don't care enough about themselves and their job to do more than the minimum required to keep their jobs than I don't feel I have any obligation to do anything for them either. It's a 2 way street. You give me just enough to get your paycheck then that is what you will always get. I can put up with a lot but the cost of firing will not trump my principals. People like this also drain the morale of your good workers.

 

[ikarasu]

I'd rather fire someone than not give them a cost of living raise. They'd have to be REALLY bad in my eyes, to not earn a 3-4% raise. Even if they're making $15... that's only about a 50-60 cent raise per year.

IMO, if they're not good enough to keep their wages current.. let them go. You wouldn't be doing them, or yourself a favor by keeping someone who needs to learn to put more effort in. Sometimes it takes getting fired, and told they're not doing a good job to smarten someone up.

 

[AKwrapguy]

I am tough on employees because I expect them to do the same job that I do and take pride in their work and be loyal. Those who produce crappy signs, play on their phones, take a billion years to make something, get kicked to the curb.

If you expect them to do the same job that you do, do you pay them the same wage that you make? Weren't you also complaining a few months ago that you couldn't find anyone to work in your shop but were only paying $12-$15 an hour?

 

[equippaint]

If you expect them to do the same job that you do, do you pay them the same wage that you make? Weren't you also complaining a few months ago that you couldn't find anyone to work in your shop but were only paying $12-$15 an hour?

Lol I would gladly pay someone the wage I make to do my job.

 

[TimToad]

Pay people a good wage, treat them like people and listen to them.

We really try on all those fronts, but most of the folks we hire, avoid responsibility, self-motivation, accountability and accepting even the most candy coated input like those things are a disease. It's a paycheck to most and the most common modus operandi we see is how to do just enough to keep the job without breaking a sweat.

We pass out cash bonuses from time to time, wine when given some by our vineyard clients, cut folks loose early every so often on Fridays with pay, buy breakfast burritos and lunch once or twice per week. We introduce them as our "co-workers" or "colleagues", then they turn around and describe us to others as simply "the boss".

We keep our workplace really clean and its nearly all done by my wife and I. We might see an occasional trash can emptied but almost never proactively or without being asked to do so. Our equipment is in great shape, we never hesitate to update something and we are on excellent terms with all of our suppliers so if something is needed, it gets here without hand wringing about money or bitching about the bills.

We play music of everyone's choosing all day and make every effort to allow a lot of latitude on breaks, lunches, appointments, days off.

We frequently compliment a good effort and show appreciation for the slightest uptick in self-motivation.

 

[ikarasu]

We really try on all those fronts, but most of the folks we hire, avoid responsibility, self-motivation, accountability and accepting even the most candy coated input like those things are a disease. It's a paycheck to most and the most common modus operandi we see is how to do just enough to keep the job without breaking a sweat.

We pass out cash bonuses from time to time, wine when given some by our vineyard clients, cut folks loose early every so often on Fridays with pay, buy breakfast burritos and lunch once or twice per week. We introduce them as our "co-workers" or "colleagues", then they turn around and describe us to others as simply "the boss".

We keep our workplace really clean and its nearly all done by my wife and I. We might see an occasional trash can emptied but almost never proactively or without being asked to do so. Our equipment is in great shape, we never hesitate to update something and we are on excellent terms with all of our suppliers so if something is needed, it gets here without hand wringing about money or *****ing about the bills.

We play music of everyone's choosing all day and make every effort to allow a lot of latitude on breaks, lunches, appointments, days off.

We frequently compliment a good effort and show appreciation for the slightest uptick in self-motivation.

My workplace is a mess. I get complaints from the owners passed onto my boss a couple times a year. I tell them I run the flatbed, roll to roll, while also running cutter/weeding/laminating all day... I barelly have a minute to sit. Whenever I do have a break... I clean and this place is spotless. They tell me to take an hour every Friday and clean... Then every single Friday, without hesitation... I get told This this and this has to go out. I've learned to tell them "I can do that, but it means no cleaning for the whole week.. again. The place is a mess, I know you understand, but I don't want the owners to think it's a pigstye.

The owners actually commented to me once about how it looked... I just looked at them, showed them my stack of 50+ signs needing to go to shipping that I didnt even have time to do... showed them how flatbed + printer + laminator + cutter were all 4 being ran, and I was jumping from station to station, they laughed and said they know, and they were joking. I think they understand it gets hectic.. hopefully!

So.. if theyre standing around doing nothing, I can see you being upset about the cleanliness. Sometimes we have no choice though! I hate it being like this as much as you guys do. I just did about 15 8 FT banners by myself... printing, cutting, heming, wind slitting, grometting, all while printing about 200 signs on the flatbed, and doing 5-6 roll to roll/cutting jobs that had to be done today. Theres double sided tape paper everywhere, pieces of banner all over... I want to pull my hair out just thinking about cleaning it. Everytime I get a 5 minute break I do what I can, but some days theres just too much work! I can't wait until they finally hire someone else to split my duties so I get a chance to clean.

In the winter when it's slower... It's spotless. But in the summer... anytime I get caught up on prints, I get sent out on installs. And I'm not just being lazy either! They offer to send someone up to help me clean while I work, but I refuse... I don't want other co-workers cleaning up after my mess, so I do my best when possible.

Just putting that out there so you guys don't just think we're all slobs

 

[equippaint]

For now, but the exponential curve of AI and robotics will solve that issue quicker than you think it will.

I have a strange conspiracy theory that those exoskeletons that the auto manufacturers are testing on their workers are actually data collecting devices for the automation of their jobs. They just dont know it yet.

 

[Quark]

My workplace is a mess. I get complaints from the owners passed onto my boss a couple times a year. I tell them I run the flatbed, roll to roll, while also running cutter/weeding/laminating all day... I barelly have a minute to sit. Whenever I do have a break... I clean and this place is spotless. They tell me to take an hour every Friday and clean... Then every single Friday, without hesitation... I get told This this and this has to go out. I've learned to tell them "I can do that, but it means no cleaning for the whole week.. again. The place is a mess, I know you understand, but I don't want the owners to think it's a pigstye.

The owners actually commented to me once about how it looked... I just looked at them, showed them my stack of 50+ signs needing to go to shipping that I didnt even have time to do... showed them how flatbed + printer + laminator + cutter were all 4 being ran, and I was jumping from station to station, they laughed and said they know, and they were joking. I think they understand it gets hectic.. hopefully!

So.. if theyre standing around doing nothing, I can see you being upset about the cleanliness. Sometimes we have no choice though! I hate it being like this as much as you guys do. I just did about 15 8 FT banners by myself... printing, cutting, heming, wind slitting, grometting, all while printing about 200 signs on the flatbed, and doing 5-6 roll to roll/cutting jobs that had to be done today. Theres double sided tape paper everywhere, pieces of banner all over... I want to pull my hair out just thinking about cleaning it. Everytime I get a 5 minute break I do what I can, but some days theres just too much work! I can't wait until they finally hire someone else to split my duties so I get a chance to clean.

In the winter when it's slower... It's spotless. But in the summer... anytime I get caught up on prints, I get sent out on installs. And I'm not just being lazy either! They offer to send someone up to help me clean while I work, but I refuse... I don't want other co-workers cleaning up after my mess, so I do my best when possible.

Just putting that out there so you guys don't just think we're all slobs

You sound like you really, really do care. I can’t help but wonder how much does it cost to have someone like you

 

[AKwrapguy]

I have a strange conspiracy theory that those exoskeletons that the auto manufacturers are testing on their workers are actually data collecting devices for the automation of their jobs. They just dont know it yet.

Not a conspiracy..... They are.

 

[AKwrapguy]

You sound like you really, really do care. I can’t help but wonder how much does it cost to have someone like you

Well since he's in Canada it would probably be something like full benefits, yearly cost of living increase, and I don't know what the exchange rate would be so like what $10 us dollars an hour...that's like $50 Canadian loonie's an hour?

 

[TimToad]

I absolutely 100% agree with you. I don't think money is the most important factor, but you have to at least keep up with the other companies around you. At a certain point, everybody has to make the decision between job satisfaction and paying their bills. If you can at least alleviate one of the issues, money, you can work on keeping your employees happy.

It's the opposite side of the coin. Don't hold your employees hostage with money, I agree. But you also can't expect them to put food on the table with warm, fuzzy feelings.

(Disclaimer: I know you already said you give good raises, I was using the abstract "you" and not referring to you specifically, equippaint.)

That keeping pace with the other companies in the area is a double edged sword. Our nearest and most aggressive competitor opened seven years ago and their shop rate was $50 per hour. Two years later it rose to $65 and stayed there for the next five years until they ran themselves into so much trouble on so many fronts, it was a fire sale just to dump the company. We don't know what the new owner is charging, but its not much more than the old rate.

We took over our company 4 years ago as of yesterday. The old owners also had been stuck at $65 per hour for five years out of fear of losing even more work to the others down the street, who were actively poaching their clients, using inferior materials, not laminating prints, doing electrical signs and installations without permits or licensing, etc. The old owner here had the same first name as the previous owner of the competitor. its a small town and customers frequently mistake theirs and our shops because we're two blocks away from each other. Whenever a customer would mistakenly go in there, they would say "Rick, is retired and we took over the business". Having employed a few and being friends with five of their previous employees including our current employee, we've heard the depths of how far they went to poach our clients even beyond those accidentally walking in. Its a real testament to our approach, integrity and hard work that we've survived and thrived even at higher rates where they have now failed.

On May 2nd, 2014, our rate jumped to $70 per hour after running some overhead calculators and some customers balked, but most new customers never knew the difference unless they called the other places in town for comparison prices. We've since inched it up to $80 per hour and while the others in our area pay on average $12-17 per hour for production/design workers, we're up at $20+ and do most of the heavy lifting around here. Our employee handles part of the design work, some of the printing, weeding, mounting, etc. but little else.

 

[TimToad]

Sounds like you're doing it right. I honestly have no problem with automating certain aspects of a facility. Especially when it's something that can free up an employee to do other things.

The good news is that (at least for now) the sign industry is fairly well insulated from automation, as quite a lot of stuff is still done the old fashioned way.

I guess you haven't seen the channel letter bending machines?

 

[equippaint]

That keeping pace with the other companies in the area is a double edged sword. Our nearest and most aggressive competitor opened seven years ago and their shop rate was $50 per hour. Two years later it rose to $65 and stayed there for the next five years until they ran themselves into so much trouble on so many fronts, it was a fire sale just to dump the company. We don't know what the new owner is charging, but its not much more than the old rate.

We took over our company 4 years ago as of yesterday. The old owners also had been stuck at $65 per hour for five years out of fear of losing even more work to the others down the street, who were actively poaching their clients, using inferior materials, not laminating prints, doing electrical signs and installations without permits or licensing, etc. The old owner here had the same first name as the previous owner of the competitor. its a small town and customers frequently mistake theirs and our shops because we're two blocks away from each other. Whenever a customer would mistakenly go in there, they would say "Rick, is retired and we took over the business". Having employed a few and being friends with five of their previous employees including our current employee, we've heard the depths of how far they went to poach our clients even beyond those accidentally walking in. Its a real testament to our approach, integrity and hard work that we've survived and thrived even at higher rates where they have now failed.

On May 2nd, 2014, our rate jumped to $70 per hour after running some overhead calculators and some customers balked, but most new customers never knew the difference unless they called the other places in town for comparison prices. We've since inched it up to $80 per hour and while the others in our area pay on average $12-17 per hour for production/design workers, we're up at $20+ and do most of the heavy lifting around here. Our employee handles part of the design work, some of the printing, weeding, mounting, etc. but little else.

If I read this correctly, the quick jump in labor costs is a problem for us too. I can only raise my prices so much, we are getting a lot of push back over it too. Construction has sucked up much of the laborers here.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

My workplace is a mess. I get complaints from the owners passed onto my boss a couple times a year. I tell them I run the flatbed, roll to roll, while also running cutter/weeding/laminating all day... I barelly have a minute to sit. Whenever I do have a break... I clean and this place is spotless. They tell me to take an hour every Friday and clean... Then every single Friday, without hesitation... I get told This this and this has to go out. I've learned to tell them "I can do that, but it means no cleaning for the whole week.. again. The place is a mess, I know you understand, but I don't want the owners to think it's a pigstye.

The owners actually commented to me once about how it looked... I just looked at them, showed them my stack of 50+ signs needing to go to shipping that I didnt even have time to do... showed them how flatbed + printer + laminator + cutter were all 4 being ran, and I was jumping from station to station, they laughed and said they know, and they were joking. I think they understand it gets hectic.. hopefully!

So.. if theyre standing around doing nothing, I can see you being upset about the cleanliness. Sometimes we have no choice though! I hate it being like this as much as you guys do. I just did about 15 8 FT banners by myself... printing, cutting, heming, wind slitting, grometting, all while printing about 200 signs on the flatbed, and doing 5-6 roll to roll/cutting jobs that had to be done today. Theres double sided tape paper everywhere, pieces of banner all over... I want to pull my hair out just thinking about cleaning it. Everytime I get a 5 minute break I do what I can, but some days theres just too much work! I can't wait until they finally hire someone else to split my duties so I get a chance to clean.

In the winter when it's slower... It's spotless. But in the summer... anytime I get caught up on prints, I get sent out on installs. And I'm not just being lazy either! They offer to send someone up to help me clean while I work, but I refuse... I don't want other co-workers cleaning up after my mess, so I do my best when possible.

Just putting that out there so you guys don't just think we're all slobs

Maybe suggest hiring a teenager after school that can work in the afternoons cleaning up and sweeping and taking trash out everyday. Wouldn't cost a whole lot and would make people feel happier in a clean shop. I hate when there is trash everywhere.