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Employee side business

signdudegraphix

New Member
We have a mobile wrap & sign shop. Been in business since 1993. Our customers are in the amusement industry.

A good friend and colleague of mine closed his shop and went to work, part time, at a new shop nearby. He was happy and the owner had no problem with him taking care of the customers he still had. All was good.

He passed away suddenly during COVID. The owner called me to let me know of his passing. A few days later he offered me his job, knowing that I had the experience he needed to run his wrap and sign business (his main business is window tint). We weren’t working and the money he offered worked for me, so I took the job.

I told the owner upfront that we weren’t shutting down our business and once our customers start calling, I would give him two weeks notice. I started in September 2020. I worked 40 hours a week at his shop. Pretty much ran it solo because there wasn’t enough work to add another employee. I never took any supplies home. I would bring in some supplies if the job only required a small amount and didn’t make sense to buy material that might sit around too long. All was good

The owner knew that I was still operating our business. We had occasional jobs from our customers that I would do on my time. By April of 2021 we were getting a little more work from our customers. Even more in May. By June, I had to give my two weeks notice. I didn’t see the owner for a week. Then he comes in to chew me out. He said that I was screwing him over and that I was more concerned about my business than his (yes, he really said that). I said absolutely. Now you’ve wasted a week not trying to hire someone. He was pissed, even though he knew I wasn’t going to be there permanently. I worked through my last day, handed him my key and thanked him for the opportunity. He shut down the graphics side of his business for almost a year before someone walked in to run it again. He and I are on better terms now and still talk occasionally.
 

John Miller

New Member
We are a small shop. I feel one of the perks I can offer my employees is to be OK with them doing side work. None of them have ever stolen a client that I know of, even if they left and started working on their own or elsewhere. Funny thing is one guy, after his first side job said, " what a pain in the butt, I'll never try that again, client was a nightmare to deal with etc.etc.etc, I don't know how you do it boss"
 

JamesLam

New Member
When jobs, materials and tools start to mysteriously vanish this may be a good place to look.

We had an employee do this to us so I pulled a Donald Trump and fired his @$$! Of course when you look back the signs were all there and in plain sight.

He quickly realized that his future in the industry was over and moved onto something else. But it didn't end there as a few years later he tried to sell our missing materials back to us. How many times did I clue him into the fact that the laminates, adhesives and media come with a lot number stuck inside the core. When you have to explain to someone that this is when they should be embarrassed you realize what a dumb ass they really are.

If the person is moonlighting that means they are usually doing something that is not related to their primary employment. If they are working at something that is akin to the primary job then they are not a team player.
 
Where did the op go? I still want to know if they are the employee, or the employer...

I am the employee. My thoughts have always been, it's pretty shady to do a side sign business - I just wanted to hear it from the owners. It really is too easy for me to steal materials / clients / tools

I am considering doing side sign work that we don't do here. I need extra cash, but I've only ever worked in the sign industry, so that's where my skills are
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
ikar........ you are citing one incident involving lotsa variables, which generally don't exist on any level from large shops down to two-man shops. However, multiply your situation by any given number and the problem becomes far worse. You and your employer have a nice little niche thing going, but as you even said in your own words, you might go out on your own. Your employer benefitted from your time there, but so did you. You earned money for hours worked and for your side gig. You also had the opportunity, at his expense, to strengthen and extend your knowledge. Priceless.

As I said about 35 years ago...... these little instant sign shops are gonna some day become a problem. One is no threat. Two are not a threat, but when one goes under, two more pop up and eventually, ya have a plethora of stupid-@ss sign shops driving prices down, cause they don't know anything about signs or their worth, but they know how to make a quick buck.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I am the employee. My thoughts have always been, it's pretty shady to do a side sign business - I just wanted to hear it from the owners. It really is too easy for me to steal materials / clients / tools

I am considering doing side sign work that we don't do here. I need extra cash, but I've only ever worked in the sign industry, so that's where my skills are
So again..... discuss it with your boss. Better to be up front, then to invest in something and he pulls the rug out from under you.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Also, if you have talent, people will exploit you. I have not worked for anyone in 50 years.
All my customers are my bosses.
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
I am the employee. My thoughts have always been, it's pretty shady to do a side sign business - I just wanted to hear it from the owners. It really is too easy for me to steal materials / clients / tools

I am considering doing side sign work that we don't do here. I need extra cash, but I've only ever worked in the sign industry, so that's where my skills are
Do what you got to do to get ahead. Bring it up to your boss and tell them you are doing a side hustle that doesn't compete with them, but you just wanted everything on the table. I'd put $$ on that everything will work out fine.
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
My BF has been a welder his entire career and does some welding on the side but he never charges anyone for labor. So many people told him over the years he should do it full-time. I got him all set up, got him business cards and shirts and books set up. He just won't do it...he gets scared. He's never going to be a threat of taking business away from his employer, more a threat of going elsewhere for more pay. He's always done side jobs for his co-workers, probably stole metal over years. I do know he buys quite a bit from where he works now for various projects. I guess there's some moonlighters that aren't really a threat, others are.
 

Zendavor Signs

Mmmmm....signs
As an employer, it doesn't seem like moonlighting would be a threat to my business. What jobs could my employees be doing that customers do not want Mon-Fri daytime service, any insurance requirements, etc? I'm not saying it is not possible, just hard to see much substance to it. My employees have used scrap vinyl, printed after hours, etc. I figure it is a small perk for the job. I had a couple employees that moonlighted (not sign work), but then once they were here for a while and got pay bumps, the side work went away. I don't believe that most people really want to work much over 40 hours. Pay your people well and you will likely see a lot of this side work go away.
 

netsol

Active Member
Let me ask you - Whats your fear if they moon light?

That they'll become a competitor, that they'll leave faster, and you'll have to hire someone else?

Employees owe employers nothing - Think about it... Whens the last time you gave your employee a $5,10 raise? The only way to get ahead is to start at a new company.... or start your own. People dont work at shops for 10 years anymore... So you have to accept your employee will leave... why not keep them as happy as you can and keep them around longer, if its not hurting you?

I started as an First aid attendant - The job I was a "Lead hand" at went under, and this was the first job I found. I was just a casual worker / OFA attendant... And then an opening in the digital department opened up, so I went up there. The graphics artist who operated the machines taught me everything wrong... Vinyl over the tension bar instead of under it on the laminator... only using 1 condition on the graphtec... Printing 1 up on our flatbed because they didnt know how to do more... I pretty much did a ton of research..a lot on here, a lot on Youtube, re-trained myself and optomized the digital department. I enjoyed it...and I like technology, so when I bought a new house, I padded my mortgage a bit and bought a Latex printer, graphtec plotter, and laminator. I learned how to do perf cuts like a pro (no one at my job even knew graphtec could cut all the way through...) I learned how to optomize workflow and do things better, and faster than at work... because I had my own stuff and cared more. I learned color management, profiling (Amateur profiling), learned how to automate onyx's cut flow to auto do kiss / perf cut based on conditions... etc. Everything I learned to do efficiently at home..transferred over to work. So its not only benefited me, my employer also benefits from me having a machine.

At first the owner was a bit weary when he found out I had a printer - I kept it quiet until Our machine crapped out, and we were outsourcing to another company... and I took him aside and told him I had one, and would print for him at just the cost of ink... something stupid like 50 cents a sqft. I wasnt looking to make money, just help out - For the next month...everything was printed / laminated / cut at my home... I worked from home while we waited for a new printer to arrive, and I only came in to drop off rolls of vinyl. It was awesome! But I think thats what showed him I wasn't looking to be a competitor, and me having a machine benefits him.

I was told the last 6 operators bought their own printers and started their own company - A few are still around, a few went out of business. We still send work / overflow to the few that are still around, and maintain a good relationship with them - They send us work they cant do... like 500 flatbed signs, or custom cut aluminum - So its mutually beneficial. Why burn a bridge when it can help you?

The owner was smart... or dumb, however you look at it. I went from digital operator, to manager - I manage all of production, a warehouse of 10-15ish people. I took what I knew...cross trained 3-4 people per machine - optimized almost everything. I learned to use the CNC... then crosstrained the new guy and another guy on that - We no longer have 1 person per machine, where we get screwed if theyre sick for a few days - I'm a backup for every machine / every process. I do all the purchasing, and I deal directly with all the customers - I setup the work flow, product specs, and deal with one of our biggest label customers who spend 200k a year with us...On a material that we get 10x proffit on. We spend 1K per roll combo, and make 10K on it. I have all their artwork files and a really good relationship with them... I could steal them tomorrow, make 10X what I do working for my company... I dont know if that thoughts ever crossed his mind... but I keep getting more and more responsibilities having to do with dealing with customers, so I dont think theyre worried too much about it.


IMO, If you're worried about some guy with a printer in his garage being competition, your business is in more trouble and you have more things to worry about and figure out. Theres hundreds of shops here that are a guy in their basement - We dont worry about them at all... let them have the craigslist, or penny pincher lookie loos who waste hours of time to buy 1 $20 sign.


Now if you have an employee with a printer whos also printing stuff for your customers... thats a bit different, and those guys should be fired / let go. Ive had people find out I have a printer and ask me to quote some stuff - I've outright turned them down, even went so far as to let the owner know they were shopping around once or twice. To me...thats just common decency, And I imagine to most others who run a side hustle are the same - But there will always be dicks who try to do everything they can to get ahead.


TLDR; It's common and if it bugs you that much just because they have a printer and theyre printing stuff for online, or stickers for friends, or theyre doing something like "height charts" on craigslist, tapping into a market you never have.. dont be butthurt because they're doing it on their own time instead of making you even more money - you hired them to be a printer operator, not a sales guy. And if you really think 1 guy in his garage is going to take food off your table...you're in the wrong business. Have a talk with your employee, let him know what you expect / what youre ok with - You shouldnt have an issue with him hitting the pavement on saturdays asking some shops if they want their windows frosted, or need some labels printed - If it doesnt hurt your business, why care? Let them know the second they cross the line theyre out, 9/10 times most people wont poach your customers.



And some people dont do it for the cash. I've been doing my own side stuff for 4 years. I've had a Latex 110 - latex 560. epson S40. And now a Epson Resin - I spent 12k, 10k, 10k and now 25K - So 60K JUST on printers because I wanted to play with a new printer. I went from an FC8600 to an FC9000 with a take up reel...which after 2 months of using I brought the owner over, showed him how much time it'd save the company if they had one...and we bought one the next day.. I like to play with new toys. IF I had the space I'd have a summa cutter... My eyes currently on a colorado 1650... I dont know if I'll ever like new technology enough to drop 100k on a single purchase for my side hustle... but who knows! I may quit my job one day - Right now I'm at about 7K profit, not counting labor.. just material costs / ink cost / overhead cost, working 2 hours a night, 3 days a week, per month. I make more on my side gig than I do at my "Real" job... but I havent thought about quitting once. I like my job...and my side job, I see it as getting ahead - trading some time now, so when I'm 50 and my house is paid off, I can relax VS work until I'm in my 65/70's.. although I'm sure I'll still be working my side gig when I am!


Then there are those that do do it for the cash - and some need it. Inflation is at a published 8.2%. Unpublished theyre saying it's in the 15-16% - is everyone here giving their employees a 10% raise this year? Didn't think so... so especially right now, everyone is taking a pretty hefty pay cut. My mortgage went from $800 a month to $1700 a month... food costs have doubled , gas is through the roof... hell, I took my kid to see a movie the other day - we dropped $100ish just for me, the wife and my kid to see 1 movie and get 1 large popcorn and 2 drinks. then $75 to eat out at a cheap shitty restaurant right after. COL is through the roof right now... 5% of US employees have 2 jobs. That's an old statistic, its probably way higher now - Would you want your employee tiring himself out working 40 hours extra a week bagging groceries... Or would you rather him on etsy selling stickers or something?
Absolutely right!
we have many real estate clients, and everyone talks about how, one major office spawned the next generation of successful agent/brokers, who opened 5-6 new offices.
each one giving 25 or more new agents a chance to grow

although my consulting business is a small one, out of the last 7 employees, 3 opened their own businesses and have done REALLY WELL
i was glad to see it. it shows i was doing something right

this is how it is supposed to work. none of them have taken food out of my mouth.
if one of them took a couple clients, it is because i wasn't satisfying their needs. my clients shouldn't be LOW HANGING FRUIT, ripe for the picking
 

ikarasu

Active Member
ikar........ you are citing one incident involving lotsa variables, which generally don't exist on any level from large shops down to two-man shops. However, multiply your situation by any given number and the problem becomes far worse. You and your employer have a nice little niche thing going, but as you even said in your own words, you might go out on your own. Your employer benefitted from your time there, but so did you. You earned money for hours worked and for your side gig. You also had the opportunity, at his expense, to strengthen and extend your knowledge. Priceless.

As I said about 35 years ago...... these little instant sign shops are gonna some day become a problem. One is no threat. Two are not a threat, but when one goes under, two more pop up and eventually, ya have a plethora of stupid-@ss sign shops driving prices down, cause they don't know anything about signs or their worth, but they know how to make a quick buck.
every situation is different. Not everyone will have the kinda relationship our boss has with us, I get that. But counter argument -

I still get sent to tons of training. I got sent to management training, I got sent to all 3 3m vit courses...ppf courses, I've been to Dinoc coursess... In Feb in being flown down to eastern USA for flatbed repair training .. he keeps spending on my training, because he keeps benefiting from it. Sure, he's paying from it... And I may benefit from it with my side business .. but that doesnt mean he benefits any less from it. So yes, at his expensive I've learned some things - but so what? I consider this my career - if the shop goes out of business, I'll be working at another... Should he be upset because he trained me and now I'm working elsewhere?

people quit all the time and work somewhere else, and they take all that knowledge they learned with them. An employee doesn't owe his employer a thing... Just like an employer doesn't owe his employer anything. If we're slow...

think of it like selling your company. Would your employees be upset because all the hard work they put into making the company what it is, is being thrown away onto a new owner? Would you even consider your employees in the sale... Or would you do what's best for you?

I Could quit tomorrow - could be because I want to work on my side business, could be because I've seen one too many mspaint signs and I want to go bag groceries at Safeway. So long as I give 2 weeks notice, and didn't take a bunch of training and then quit 2 weeks later... Both employee and employer benefits from any training they recieve, I don't think that should be a problem.

yes, there are exceptions to that rule. But I also think if you have an employee who will poach customers, or who will steal supplies or vinyl... It's not an employee worth having. So if running ansidenbusiness tempts them... It's better to find out and get rid of them!


i do agree all these small garage shops hurt the industry though. We pay $50'000 a month rent for our current shop - my overhead is nothing. It's hard to compete. And maybe it's different for your business, but most of our clients are big corporations, cities / government stuff. The type of client who won't goto some guy in his garage - we have to prove our million dollar liability insurance before we do most installs... Stuff a garage shop can't do. I detest people coming in to buy a single small sign, or 100 stickers, or something that's just anyone waster. I say let the garage people have all those! I see it can and does affect most shops more than us though, so I get the animosity towards them.


But what makes you legit? Do you have a problem with what I do in my garage? I take my knowledge and only do stuff properly. I don't do design work because I suck at it, I refer them to other designers - I only use proper materials... I won't put calander on a vehicle, I won't sell a crappy sign that will fade in anyway. I don't undercut to make a sale... I do everything properly, I even pay for a business license, submit my pst / gst every 3 months... I do everything a normal business does... Except have shop. 90% of my sales are online...75% of that is to America. I offer unique products, stuff that competes with other shops in sure,but everything I sell is originally designed - wall murals, wallpaper, I do some stickers but I'm getting away from that. I don't cut corners, I don't screw people over, or try to make a buck off someone else's misfortune... I try to release a quality product people are happy with, at a fair price. Everything I do can be done in a small 8 x 8 ft room. Does it matter if it's in my garage or in a shop?

To rent a 900 sqft shop in my city is $4-7000 a month. How can any small business start out with those prices? I'd rather that $7000 goto my pocket than some bigwig real estate company who's renting out commercial property.

So yes, small garage shops that are doing stuff super cheap, or using the wrong materials / specs for the jobs give legit shops a bad name. And yes... 90% of garage printers fall into that category. But there are some good ones out there..and I'd rather our next generation of sign shops be one that was trained and doing a side business properly, vs some guy who bought your used printer for $4000 and started screwing people over with sub par products.

There's definately pros/cons in both sides of the argument. And I'm sure every case is different. But I just hope some people don't immediately disregard their employee wanting to have their own printer because they're scared of competition, or their enmployee stealing supplies. It can be beneficial to both parties
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
He got me over a few hurdles I was having

He built you a step ladder?
I just noticed this...

PXL_20221212_135210448.jpg
 

netsol

Active Member
every situation is different. Not everyone will have the kinda relationship our boss has with us, I get that. But counter argument -

I still get sent to tons of training. I got sent to management training, I got sent to all 3 3m vit courses...ppf courses, I've been to Dinoc coursess... In Feb in being flown down to eastern USA for flatbed repair training .. he keeps spending on my training, because he keeps benefiting from it. Sure, he's paying from it... And I may benefit from it with my side business .. but that doesnt mean he benefits any less from it. So yes, at his expensive I've learned some things - but so what? I consider this my career - if the shop goes out of business, I'll be working at another... Should he be upset because he trained me and now I'm working elsewhere?

people quit all the time and work somewhere else, and they take all that knowledge they learned with them. An employee doesn't owe his employer a thing... Just like an employer doesn't owe his employer anything. If we're slow...

think of it like selling your company. Would your employees be upset because all the hard work they put into making the company what it is, is being thrown away onto a new owner? Would you even consider your employees in the sale... Or would you do what's best for you?

I Could quit tomorrow - could be because I want to work on my side business, could be because I've seen one too many mspaint signs and I want to go bag groceries at Safeway. So long as I give 2 weeks notice, and didn't take a bunch of training and then quit 2 weeks later... Both employee and employer benefits from any training they recieve, I don't think that should be a problem.

yes, there are exceptions to that rule. But I also think if you have an employee who will poach customers, or who will steal supplies or vinyl... It's not an employee worth having. So if running ansidenbusiness tempts them... It's better to find out and get rid of them!


i do agree all these small garage shops hurt the industry though. We pay $50'000 a month rent for our current shop - my overhead is nothing. It's hard to compete. And maybe it's different for your business, but most of our clients are big corporations, cities / government stuff. The type of client who won't goto some guy in his garage - we have to prove our million dollar liability insurance before we do most installs... Stuff a garage shop can't do. I detest people coming in to buy a single small sign, or 100 stickers, or something that's just anyone waster. I say let the garage people have all those! I see it can and does affect most shops more than us though, so I get the animosity towards them.


But what makes you legit? Do you have a problem with what I do in my garage? I take my knowledge and only do stuff properly. I don't do design work because I suck at it, I refer them to other designers - I only use proper materials... I won't put calander on a vehicle, I won't sell a crappy sign that will fade in anyway. I don't undercut to make a sale... I do everything properly, I even pay for a business license, submit my pst / gst every 3 months... I do everything a normal business does... Except have shop. 90% of my sales are online...75% of that is to America. I offer unique products, stuff that competes with other shops in sure,but everything I sell is originally designed - wall murals, wallpaper, I do some stickers but I'm getting away from that. I don't cut corners, I don't screw people over, or try to make a buck off someone else's misfortune... I try to release a quality product people are happy with, at a fair price. Everything I do can be done in a small 8 x 8 ft room. Does it matter if it's in my garage or in a shop?

To rent a 900 sqft shop in my city is $4-7000 a month. How can any small business start out with those prices? I'd rather that $7000 goto my pocket than some bigwig real estate company who's renting out commercial property.

So yes, small garage shops that are doing stuff super cheap, or using the wrong materials / specs for the jobs give legit shops a bad name. And yes... 90% of garage printers fall into that category. But there are some good ones out there..and I'd rather our next generation of sign shops be one that was trained and doing a side business properly, vs some guy who bought your used printer for $4000 and started screwing people over with sub par products.

There's definately pros/cons in both sides of the argument. And I'm sure every case is different. But I just hope some people don't immediately disregard their employee wanting to have their own printer because they're scared of competition, or their enmployee stealing supplies. It can be beneficial to both parties
employee training is part of 'onboarding' (unless it is a company or a position that has none)

there is always a cost to losing an employee and bringing another on, as any of your HR consultants, or headhunters will tell you, but, look at the costs of the disruption when you can not bring a replacement employee in smoothly
 
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