exterior lettering HDU vs. Gator: Pros & Cons

[iSign]

I have a friend opening a new restaurant. He is in an area with very little rain & will have some 1-1/2" thick, 15" tall foam letters, with digitally printed faces tucked back under an overhang.

We had discussed primed & painted HDU and a veneer of acrylic with the printed graphics. His dimensional lettering is designed to have a white border & white "returns", so I planned to cut the acrylic to the shape of the darker letter & cut the larger white outline shape in the HDU, to give the white border a subtle recessed dimension.

At this point, the client is looking for some possible last minute cost cutting & time saving options & I'm planning to offer him the option of downgrading from HDU to Gator Foam (or is it gator foam? with a plastic surface on both sides?)

Anyway the gator product I'm suggesting is something I still have in stock & have used on 2 different exterior applications already, both were painted with oil base rattle can spray paint, & had laminated prints applied to the surface, so I have reason to be fairly confident with the durability.

The one thing I am most curious about is whether or not I should paint them white if they are already white. It's not going to make a huge difference, but if he could even get these letters this weekend, he'd love that & if the white foam edges are already UV resistant & will stay white, then I'd consider that. I'm thinking it's too much like a sponge though & will get dirty & be harder to clean (not that anyone ever cleans edges of letters ) so I expect I'll spray paint the edges white, but maybe not the face, since it's such a perfect surface for vinyl application...

Anyway, I just hate to offer a money saving solution for my client if it raises the odds of a malfunction & even though I have two successful installations outside for a few years I decided to ask what concerns any of you might bring up...

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

isign myself i love hdu however i would very rarely use it for flat cut letters...if the letters have a texture to the face or prismatic tooling definitely but for flat cut letters there are many choices that are more cost effective and will still give you great longevity.

personally i won't put gator outdoors...in fact i avoid working with it unless a client specifically specifies it and that client is a sign company or agency, in that case they are professionals and can make their own decisions as to if the material meets their requirments for the project.

for flat cut letters i have used acrylic, mdo, mdf..even blue insullation foam off the shelves at home depot (it obviously isn't my material of choice..but it is cost effective).

when i did wholesale router work we painted unbelievable quantities of gator. being a bit of a perfectionist it was so difficult to hit it with the hvlp sprayer from every angle so that the sides did not show any of the original color of the material..admittedly i am a perfectionist and it has killed the profit on many projects over the years...because of this i simply reached the point that i will not use gator for my own projects and i would tell my wholesale clients that we would route the material but we would not paint it, i just could not send the final product out the door with pride.

i have projects out that are unpainted gator that have been up under an eave of a building for 10yrs on the other side of the coin i have seen it fade in less than a year in a high exposure outdoor area...so in my opinion if it is in a protected area in non direct sunlight (in hawaii haha) i would feel much better about using gator...

 

[SignManiac]

Does it have to be 1-1/2" thick? If you can get away with it, look into the 3/4" PVC that I just mentioned in my other post. It's a nice middle option between the GatorFoam and HDU. Strong, weather resistant, smooth, takes digital prints nice.

 

[daveb]

Not sure if I know what I'm doing here yet but here goes (I just joined). First real Gatorfoam doesn't have plastic on both sides, it has a paper finish similar to MDO. "Ultraboard" a product similar to Gatorfoam that has a thin plastic on both sides, stay away from it for outdoor applications. We had to failures of that product, the plastic delaminated from the foam after a couple of years. We've had Gatorfoam last 8-10 years outside IF you prime and paint the edges good, UV kills foam (even HUD) if it's not coated well. While I was writing this the suggestion from Maniac came in about the PVC, I like that idea. It's substantial enough you could even stud mount it and fly it off the wall a little to give it even more dimension, it's heavy enough you couldn't stand it off too far though. Just my thots.

 

[iSign]

great tips, thanks.. PVC is so costly here, & they need 1-1/2" thickness, because we talked his landlord out of a channel letter requirement by selling them on some degree of thickness...

Dan, I agree about thinking Gator is too cheap, even though I've seen it work outside... and I also hate wasting HDU for FCO's

Maybe I'll do a cost comparison of 2 layers of 3/4" PVC.
My perception is no paint is required for white PVC to become white letters, & that means I can subtract some labor in my comparison..

Anyone want to advise my of their choice of adhesive for 2 layers of PVC?

 

[J Hill Designs]

PVC cement...or IB2107 (mactac) laminating sheets

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

if you are applying a digital print to the faces i would screw through both layers of pvc countersinking the screwheads so that they are flush...cover with a little putty to make smoooth and then when dry apply your digitally printed faces then use the screws that stick through the backside as posts for mounting along with adhesive...i always prefer to use mechanical and chemical fasteners (makes me sleep much better at night)

 

[iSign]

hmm... can't get 3/4" PVC on Maui, but Extira is available for $78 a sheet.
I remember a lot of folks being suspicious about durability claims when that product first came out.. now it's been a while but I've still never used it.

Anyone have experience with Extira or opinions about it's suitability? Is it better than the MDF option that Dan mentioned?

 

[iSign]

what do you folks think of Extira? (hmm.. maybe I'll search for extira threads & maybe start a new one if needed)

 

[GB2]

Doug, I don't have experience with using any of the Gator Foam products for exterior, so I can't comment about that. I have used PVC for exterior products many times and I can say that generally it is an excellent product, but there are some things to know in it's use. You can leave it in it's natural state as it is impervious to anything but if you leave the edges unfinished then they may have a tendency to capture dirt and darken or form mold. That is easily cleaned up however with some normal washing and maintenance. PVC does expand and contract probably a bit more than anything else on the market and you should keep that in mind when mounting your product. Also it has a tendency to bow a bit and when it does it will be permanent but that can be minimized by paying attention to your installation. The thicker the material the less it will deform and also there are many brands of PVC and each has there own characteristics. I have attempted to glue/laminate PVC many times with many products and most have failed miserably. Don't even think about using plumbing PVC cement, PVC cement sold in the lumber industry, Gorilla Glue, or anything not specifically designed for PVC. I have had good success with IPS Weld On #16, and there are good adhesives available from West Systems and Lord Adhesives. PVC is readily available up to 1" thick.

I have also used HDU foam very successfully and the only drawbacks are the cost and the fact that it requires many coats of finishing. Once it is finished though you can mount vinyl graphics to it without laminating any other material to it.

If you were to try some regular foam that would be available at your local lumber yard, I would laminate dibond to it for the exposed surface. I have done that type of thing for interior use but not for permanent exterior use. I suspect it would probably work just fine though. Since we're discussing lumber yards, remember that lumber products such as Azek are simply PVC and might be more readily available than PVC dedicated for sign use.

I don't have much experience with Extira but I know that it has very specific finishing requirements and that it is very heavy.

 

[skyhigh]

Given your location, I would be really tempted to use the blue board to obtain your thickness. I have never used Extira, so no help there.

Good luck with the project !! Keep us posted with pics of the finished job.

 

[iSign]

Gary, thanks a lot for the tips on PVC adhesives... since I can't get thicker Sintra here on Maui, I might end up trying an adhesive solution, so I'll be sure to look for that weld-on product & do some testing... I'll also look into Azek, which I've never heard of...

Thanks for your tips too skyhigh, by "blue board" I assume you mean the insulation like the pink stuff?
Made by Owens Corning? I think they call it "Foamular"?

I've tried very hard to get some of that here on maui & I can't seem to make it happen...

but if I do, I've heard of "Styrospray" as a hardcoat that even works on cheap big bead foam products... but even the insulation would need something, so what do you suggest to finish the blue board Skyhigh?

 

[jcuminale]

extira

we have been using extira for several years and it seems to hold up well where it's weight is not an issue. i would not want to walk under a sign hung with eye hooks, but with no more of a hassle than prepping/painting hdu, i think it is a great product. it real will notwarp, crack, or check.... i get a kick out of that line when i see the middle of an hdu sign blown out....if only someone would make some hdu with a solid core of some type.

 

[SignManiac]

Doug, I've used the Extira on several projects with no failures. It will require painting and the specs are on their website. The only drawback on larger projects is weight, the stuff can get pretty heavy when working with 3/4 and 1" thicknesses. The letters shouldn't be a problem other than the time to get a smooth finish if it's that critical.

The black background on this sign is 1" as well as the molding trim I made for the top. This sign weighed a ton when it was done. It's been up five years now and the last time I checked on it, still looked solid. The one thing about Extire versus PVC is expansion and contraction. Paint PVC a dark color and use in a warm climate and the stuff comes to life, so take that into account.

 

[GB2]

You were asking about that "blue board" or Formular insulation, as I suggested you can laminate the surface with something like DiBond and paint finish the edges with fairly good results or you can just hardcoat the foam with a number of products, foremost being Magic Smooth. What...can't get it you say? I'll ship you out some this afternoon if you want. I don't know what the cost of shipping would be.

 

[skyhigh]

Doug, pm sent

GB2, I've never used Magic Smooth.....how do you apply it?

 

[GB2]

It's a two part epoxy product that you mix and then trowel it on. It is very sticky and has the consistency of vasoline. You can smooth it out with tools or gloved hands wet with water. Magic Sculpt is the companion product, which has the consistency of clay and is applied in the same manner. The Smooth is designed as a coating type product and the Sculpt is designed as a sculpting type product (I guess the name gives it away huh!)

 

[iSign]

thanks again guys... this site is a godsend... as always...