Failing Graphics

[Signature Sign Guys]

Hey guys,

so we had an install done in January 2021 on mpi2923 and I had fed the graphics into the recessed area, rather than bridging since I was using mpi2923, and the client had just emailed us this photo saying it is now failing. We are located in BC and just after the install date, our temperatures went from +7 - +5 degrees Celcius to almost -20 degrees Celcius overnight. could this have caused this type of issue? I am stumped at how this could have happened with zero stretch in the film. we are now replacing this decal with mpi1105 but that seems to be overkill for this job but we do not want to risk it failing for a 2nd time. Has anyone else had issues with crazy cold snaps causing issues?

 

[Pewter0000]

Hey guys,

so we had an install done in January 2021 on mpi2923 and I had fed the graphics into the recessed area, rather than bridging since I was using mpi2923, and the client had just emailed us this photo saying it is now failing. We are located in BC and just after the install date, our temperatures went from +7 - +5 degrees Celcius to almost -20 degrees Celcius overnight. could this have caused this type of issue? I am stumped at how this could have happened with zero stretch in the film. we are now replacing this decal with mpi1105 but that seems to be overkill for this job but we do not want to risk it failing for a 2nd time. Has anyone else had issues with crazy cold snaps causing issues?

Avery 2923 is a calendared vinyl, is it not? So that wouldn't help.

We've had failures here before with even proper IJ180, because of a few things. The best practice is to make sure you're post heating well, and it doesn't hurt to use some adhesive promoter in any recessed areas. You should be able to apply this with either "tuck and roll" (which you seemed to have done) or the tenting method, as long as it's done right it shouldn't fail. Cold snap might have just made it happen faster.

Calendared vinyl though... not sure if that's the right choice. We would have done MPI 1105 EZ RS and good post-heating.

 

[Signature Sign Guys]

Avery 2923 is a calendared vinyl, is it not? So that wouldn't help.

We've had failures here before with even proper IJ180, because of a few things. The best practice is to make sure you're post heating well, and it doesn't hurt to use some adhesive promoter in any recessed areas. You should be able to apply this with either "tuck and roll" (which you seemed to have done) or the tenting method, as long as it's done right it shouldn't fail. Cold snap might have just made it happen faster.

Calendared vinyl though... not sure if that's the right choice. We would have done MPI 1105 EZ RS and good post-heating.

I agree that a cast film would have no issues but the red cut vinyl(which is also calendared) I laid down first in the same fashion is holding strong. I am wondering if I did not post-heat long enough, or if there were contaminates on the red vinyl which did not give the mpi 2923 a proper bond.

 

[2B]

printed vinyl ALWAYS has more "memory" than plotter vinyl.

What did you use for lamination?
putting CAST lam onto printed CAL will give better results and less lifting

 

[Gino]

I really don't consider that a recessed area. Just a slight crease. It did it all along the entire area, so I'd say it was the the wrong choice of vinyl, not post heating it or both. Also, we usually don't go over the seams as you did. They're gonna lift next. It really does look like you tented it across that area and just pushed it back in. Temperatures..... ?? It could, but not that quickly, unless something was done wrong. A good application should not lift.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It's possible that you stretched it without realizing it. It's easy to do even when it seems that you walked it down into that area. Then with no heat, it popped back up.

 

[Gino]

Something just triggered in my head. Do you do this in a somewhat controlled area ?? Or is it very cold or are you outside ??

 

[Signature Sign Guys]

printed vinyl ALWAYS has more "memory" than plotter vinyl.

What did you use for lamination?
putting CAST lam onto printed CAL will give better results and less lifting

lamination was dol2060 so another cal lam

 

[Signature Sign Guys]

Something just triggered in my head. Do you do this in a somewhat controlled area ?? Or is it very cold or are you outside ??

we have an install bay and the temp was a bit colder than I would like. probable around +7 - +10 celsius. Should we have left the vehicle in the bay overnight so it wasn't exposed to negative degrees right away?

 

[2B]

we have an install bay and the temp was a bit colder than I would like. probable around +7 - +10 celsius. Should we have left the vehicle in the bay overnight so it wasn't exposed to negative degrees right away?

in addition to the surface ideally being warmer, was the media the same temp as the van surface?

 

[Signature Sign Guys]

in addition to the surface ideally being warmer, was the media the same temp as the van surface?

That's a tough one to remember exactly, I am going to assuming that the media was a bit warmer than the van as I tend to keep the graphics in a separate area until it comes to the install but they could have reached the same temp while I was measuring out the placement for them

 

[Jester1167]

Typically in colder climates leaving the vehicle inside overnight is the best practice. In my mind, all vehicle graphics should be cast/cast combos. Post heating helps the adhesive build maximum bond but calendared vinyl over time will break that bond. Typically the adhesive will separate from the vinyl. The cold just sped up the inherent problems with calendared vinyl.

If you consider the total cost, including installation and removal, calendared vinyl cost just as cast much when you factor in all the adhesive you will have to clean off when you remove it.

My buddy tried to get away with IJ40 in the exact same scenario in Florida and had the exact same problems. Cheap is cheap for a reason.

 

[ikarasu]

Kamloops... You're close! Always good to see fellow Canadians

Calandered vinyl is meant for flat surfaces. Purely flat surfaces... And while that's not too big of a curve... It doesn't surprise me that it lifted.

I don't think post heating it would have helped in this case... I'm used to 3m vinyl, so I could be wrong... But I believe only wrap and cast vinyl has a memory that breaks at a certain temp... Not the cheap Calandered stuff. So by heating you may have got the glue flowing... But the vinyl still wants to go back into its original straight shape.


Also... Metal has more.adhesion than overlam. Even if the red underneath stuck.. The bond between the printed and the red vinyl is way lower. All it takes is that little overlap to lift and then air and water will make the rest lift and tent.


My advice.... Rip it all off and use a cast. Even if you fix it... In a few months once summer hits you'll likely experience the same thing happening and have to fix it again. I've seen a dozen car wrap shops close down in gvrd area because of shotty installs or using crap vinyl trying to save a few bucks. It's not worth it..

 

[ikarasu]

I stalked your website..

You guys do tons of wraps, from very complex to just flat decals. What looks like 100+ installs... I'm sure something like this Could be done blindfolded!

I wouldn't question the install and post heating in a scenario like this.... Install mistakes do happen, but IMO it's the vinyl.

Even if it doesn't fail... It's a permanent vinyl... You'll be cussing yourself out for saving a few bucks if the customer ever wants a removal done. I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing, but stick with a cast / wrap material and you'd likely avoid issues like this!

 

[Pewter0000]

We're in Halifax, so not wildly cold, but we almost always request the vehicle overnight. Then it's warm and ready to install and scoot out the door right away. But that's just our workflow. We also almost exclusively use cast vinyl for vehicles, even if it's going on a flat space. Just part of the practice, keeps our quoting consistent.

 

[gabagoo]

I am just wondering why you would use Calendered vinyl for this job? Cheap customer?

 

[White Haus]

The vinyl/laminate is to blame. We used to use 2923EZ + 210 gloss on all our flat vehicle work, but realized the laminate and/or vinyl would fail prematurely.

Anything touching a vehicle we use 3M IJ180cv3 + 3M 8518. Don't love the way the vinyl installs, but it never fails.

 

[signheremd]

Printed calendared vinyl wants to return to flat - post form heating is not as effective as it is for cast wrap vinyl - add in that temperature drop and... A good example of why we always use Arlon SLX Cast Wrap or Oracal 3951 Rapid Air - such failures can hurt your reputation (plus cast = longer lifespan). Another plus of cast is stripping "ease" after 5 or more years - we have stripped calendared from other shops and that stuff is brittle (have to pull out the stripper wheel).

 

[highrolling24]

I use calendared vinyl all the time wrapping golf carts and I have them out there more than 5 years now and they still look great, (GF automark and lam) I think you needed to wait the 24 hours wrap vinyl wants so the adhesive has time to fully adhere to the surface. If you read just about all wrap vinyls will say it takes 24 hours in a warm environment to get full adhesion, I think it was the cold for sure.

 

[Signature Sign Guys]

I am just wondering why you would use Calendered vinyl for this job? Cheap customer?

we went with the calendered vinyl because we figured that we could use the proper install technics and pass down some savings to the client. We have had success with the same vinyl in the same type of install in the past and thought nothing of it. obv this wasn't the case with this one and now we are reprinting and reinstalling with mpi1105