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Question Favorite Font

Discussion in 'Logo Design' started by Kim@PhantomSpeedshop, Feb 23, 2020.

  1. Andy D

    Andy D Very Active Member

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    Agreed, our company logo is copperplate :(
     
  2. Bobby H

    Bobby H Very Active Member

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    Anyone working in a sign company is going to be stuck using the Windows OS. There is absolutely ZERO way around that anymore. It used to be possible to do it all from Mac OS, but those days are over. Most professional graphic design work is going to require a computer either running on the Mac platform or Windows platform. It depends on that person's work flow and the nature of graphics files and other design assets they receive from clients and collegues. That does as much to tie anyone into an operating system and ecosystem of graphics software (like Adobe) as anything.

    The only practical way I can see anyone doing graphics work entirely from a Linux/UNIX based system is if they run a completely isolated work flow and don't have to handle graphics files from anyone else. Such a situation is going to be very unique and uncommon. Sign companies absolutely do not work like that at all. So in the end the vast majority of graphics people are confined to operating systems pre-loaded with icky sticky Arial.

    I definitely don't like using Brush Script for a variety of reasons. For one thing, the various font files of it are very primitive compared to modern OpenType brush style script faces. Most new OTF script faces are loaded with a decent number of alternate characters, swashes, ligatures, etc none of which are featured in any of the Brush Script fonts.

    I've also grown to dislike Brush Script due to hacks out there using it in visually toxic combinations with other fonts -like Brush Script and Arial Black together (with both stretched and squeezed out of normal proportions).

    Copperplate is another one of those typefaces where way too many people use it where it just isn't appropriate at all. Or they combine it with other typefaces in combinations that make no visual sense at all (like Copperplate and Arial). And even in situations where the use is appropriate they likely don't understand the system (like the old Copperplate 29AB thru 33BC font family Adobe bundled in with some of their applications in the 1990's).

    I like The Fontry's variant of it, called "Copper Penny." The 5 font family has some nifty stylistic features to it.

    Some type foundries can do a pretty good job breathing new life in some font designs people have grown to hate. The Oh No Type Company has a few really good ones. Most people can't stand the old Hobo typeface, but their send up of it, called Hobeaux, is really very good (and includes a number of handy OTF features).
     
  3. WildWestDesigns

    WildWestDesigns Major Contributor

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    This was not intended to start another debate, nor was it trying to switch people to another platform. Crap, just delete the offending fonts from the computer if it's that big of a deal.



    Mac is also UNIX-like, shoot even based of BSD (at least the kernel is (Darwin), which is what is being talked about here).

    It doesn't necessarily have to be devoid of handling graphics files from other places, it does require the extent of what one has to do with those other files.


    I don't know about that. Quite a few shops on here are quite proud of the fact of being Mac only (No deployments of Windows, or so they claim. No VMs, dual boots, isolated workstations etc, so they claim). Just like there are some that claim to have never messed with Adobe, I think even one mentioned that in one of our conversations about if one had to run Adobe or not. But I do agree with you, it boils down to this:

    As to how unique that is, I dunno. I would be confident in saying not mainstream for sure, but I don't see it being so uncommon as to not being an option at all.
     
  4. Bobby H

    Bobby H Very Active Member

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    Arial coming pre-loaded on OSX is usually not a big deal to most wannabe designers, just like it's not a big deal to the same people for Arial to be prevalent on Windows systems. The fact Arial is present on both platforms (and alphabetically near the top of the font menu) just makes Arial far more likely to be featured on badly designed signs.

    If a sign shop is using an exclusively Mac-based work flow that shop would have to be using either ancient, outdated "CAS" style software or vinyl cutter plug-ins for Illustrator (and deal with Illustrator's art board size limits). The shop would effectively be locked out of doing certain kinds of sign work, such as large format digital printing due to what looks like a total lack of pro-level RIP software for that platform. Is any routing table software made for OSX? It takes a decent routing table to produce channel letter faces and many other kinds of sign parts. None of the leading LED variable message center display companies make their control software for the Mac platform. So that's another issue.

    To sum it up, using Mac-based computers in the design and production dept of a sign company is very impractical. Just like how it's often very impractical to handle Adobe-generated brand assets and graphics assets in rival graphics applications.
     
  5. James Burke

    James Burke Being a grandpa is more fun than working

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    In my opinion, Helvetica and Arial are very valuable typefaces when used as a "side dish". They're at their best when they compliment script or serif typefaces as subcopy. And while many people try to make them stand on their own, they're fine in small doses or when used for wayfinding or other utilitarian signage.


    JB
     
  6. WildWestDesigns

    WildWestDesigns Major Contributor

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    If I can make it work on a platform that doesn't have any plugins or OEM hardware support for cutters at all without any plugins or other 3rd party software/plugins (unless it's open source), I find it hard to believe that their only option is to also relay on outdated software (and bare in mind, I do love my legacy tech). And this is using what is available out of the box on the platform (and using the GUI, I know you are a stickler for that).

    Well, I think it's just pro forma that everyone would have to deal with Ai's art board limit, after all they are the standard for the software that everyone needs to use right? And is it really that difficult to handle that limitation?

    Hmmm, I didn't think Caldera wasn't considered pro-level, that's good to know. Certainly has the pricing of pro level software though. Go figure, it isn't quite as easy as "get what you pay for" in every instance.


    You have me there. That's the one thing that I never did. Routing. While there may be something, nothing jumps up at my me right off hand.


    No, only open source on that one that I am aware of and and it would have to be compiled from source for Macs. Linux does have options for binaries, but not Macs, no Windows version however.



    Back to the topic: All of this talking of fonts, and I had to go back to get 6 A&S fonts:

    Black Swan
    Cardiak
    Cartoon
    Gingerbread (embellishments)
    Old Glory
    Raptor

    Always did like Steve's fonts.
     
  7. rjssigns

    rjssigns Major Contributor

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    Back on track with font stuff. My choices are not in the workaday category, but what I personally like. LHF Stanford script and A&S Speedway are two faves. Not eminently useful but they add movement and presence. I've used both to render hailing port names. LHF Desire works well for yacht transoms too.

    I get enough of Times, Arial, Helvetica etc... everyday. When a boat owner gives this dog some chain I like to mix it up.
     
  8. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    Don't they make autocad for Mac?
    I thought both watchfire and dakatron had moved to cloud based control software. Not to mention, does the sign company need to be able to run the emc, or just set it up initially.

    But I am not standing up for macs or osx, just thought there were options here. I don't have one, I personally have a chromebook for remoting into windows workstations when I need to do something from home.
     
  9. Bobby H

    Bobby H Very Active Member

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    What you can make work in your embroidery setup does not apply to everyone else here doing sign work. For industry specific sign design/production software the Windows platform has far more choices while the Mac platform has barely anything at all and Linux is even worse off than that.

    SAi Flexi, Gerber Omega, CADLink's SignLab, Vinyl Master Pro and Vinyl Express LXi are all Windows-only applications. CoCut's plug-ins are Windows only. The only "CAS" style design software I've seen available for the Mac is Graphtec's Cutting Master plug-ins and "MacSign" (which strangely also runs on Windows).

    Ok, Caldera is one Mac-based large format RIP application. I'll bet only a small minority of users on this forum run Caldera since there is no Windows-based version. Most of us here have long been using Windows PCs due to the other sign making software and hardware we have to use. Onyx' applications, Wasatch, Ergosoft, Roland VersaWorks and Mimaki RasterLink Pro all run only on Windows.

    AutoCAD isn't a dedicated routing table program. It's not like an application such as EnRoute or the software Gerber includes with its routing tables. On top of that, most 2D artwork generated by AutoCAD is garbage for output (lots of disconnected line and arc segments rather than any closed paths).

    Daktronics new Venus Control Suite has a web-based scheduling setup that can be used on desktop computers and mobile devices. The built-in message creation capabilities of the web-based software is very rudimentary. For any decent message creation capabilities you have to use the Venus 1500 software, which has to install on a Windows-based PC. It's possible for users to create their own images, messages, videos, etc using third party graphics software. But most end users of LED signs need something more straight-forward like Venus 1500.

    We haven't sold many of Watchfire's products lately, so I haven't seen what they've been doing with a web-based setup. All of their past desktop-based software has run on Windows PCs. Over the years we've sold a lot of different makes of LED variable message displays. All of the control software included with those displays ran only on Windows.
     
  10. WildWestDesigns

    WildWestDesigns Major Contributor

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    I think one would be surprised what one can do. But given how it appears your stance is on things, I doubt that will ever change and that's fine, do what works.

    Again, I wasn't trying to make this a post about switching platforms. It appears one has a hair trigger. I was only mentioning that I didn't have to deal with the fonts that some on here bellyache over as they don't come pre-installed. That was it.

    It's actually irrelevant the fact that I mainly do embroidery compared to sign work (yes I do some sign related stuff, more novelty it seems, but it is signage) as embroidery setups are even more entrenched on Windows then sign related software. At least at the commercial level. Consumer level is something else as there are more options for Mac on the consumer front.

    So trust me, I'm an outlier no matter how one looks at it.

    Although I was quite surprised that there was a user on here that was looking for an open source solution for cutting software/plugin and didn't mind "hacking" on it either. I was floored at that.

    Given that Mac users are a smaller % of users in general and in this forum especially, the odds are in your favor as it is just based on that alone. That wasn't the point of that, the point was that there is an option for the Mac (and Linux) platform, when it appears(to me) you were under the impression that there was none for the Mac. I actually did find a routing option, but given it's development model, I doubt it would ever be considered "pro level" (much like the LED control software)
     
  11. Bobby H

    Bobby H Very Active Member

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    What I'm talking about isn't some closed-minded "stance." A company's work flow will determine what computing platform it has to use. A full service sign company has to run software to control vinyl cutters, large format printers, routing tables and specialty devices like channel letter return bending and notching machines. The Windows platform has all of those bases covered. Mac OSX does not. And Linux isn't even close. For other graphics-related industries, like magazine or newspaper publishing or video production the Mac platform is far better positioned. But those niche industries developed on a much different path from the sign industry.

    Fair enough. One of numerous consequences of the Windows platform's dominance over the sign industry is the positioning of Arial as the default of all default typefaces. It's even much more of a pervasive default than Helvetica. It's ugly and it's everywhere. Billions of Word documents are infected with Arial. It's rare to witness a PowerPoint slide show without being subjected to a big dose of Arial. And of course it's the go to font for whip it out quick cheap sign designs. I've even seen Arial used on big green highway signs when FHWA Series Gothic or Clearview Highway were the only approved options. There's just a lot of people sleep walking their way through the design process. Arial is the snooz button for getting out of scrolling font menus ASAP.

    Windows users have to go out of their way to acquire Helvetica or at least scroll a little bit down the font list to find a decent clone of it, such as Swiss 721. Too many "designers" can't even make that much of an effort, despite the fact CorelDRAW includes a lot more weights and design options of Swiss 721 than the puny, limited variety of Arial weights built into Windows.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  12. WildWestDesigns

    WildWestDesigns Major Contributor

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    There are other options out there then just the mainstream. Some are really good, some are really bad granted. I think some people are stuck on "you get what you pay for", but bad can be had on any platform at any price point, even those that were once good can be "bug" prone now (how is the latest version of Corel shaping up? I've heard complaints on here about Flexi 19 as well (a lot of people going back to Flexi 12), Win 10 isn't without it's issues as well (platform is becoming less a focus at MS nowadays).

    While in the sign shop programs there does exist commercial versions of something for Mac and Linux (can even get Adobe as well Mac), there exists nothing on the Linux platform for embroidery, unless one goes outside the regular sphere of software choices. Mac as far as pro level commercial programs again, just a plugin (unless that has changed, although like I said there are good consumer level software that will handle about 80% of most shops needs), but at least that plugin is still current. I mention that, just because I feel like you think that it's actually easier for mainly embroidery shop to switch to something like Linux compared to a sign shop and it's not really the case.

    I think there is one thing that is going to change things eventually, for the big players that have been around for going on 40 yrs, maybe not so much, but I can see a shift to cloud computing more and for some things that will work. Vector work can easily be done in the browser (I have a locally installed browser based software that I use right now). Also have Electron (which I actually build with my own in house stuff as well) which can be run on any platform (use cordova on those same projects and get it to work on mobile without having to change the base coding). Some people don't like browser based or programming done by higher level languages (JS, Python etc), but like Flash, it's more of a tell about how the programmer is programming versus the inefficiency of the language in some respects. Browser based I do have my concerns with (separate concerns), but something like Electron/Cordova (if I'm not mistaken this framework even has ties with Adobe as well) framework, to where DRM can still be applied and it can be locally installed with all of the benefits therein, I can see that being something that would get other platforms more on parity. But that's speculation.

    But anyway, I'm widely off topic (as is the case, especially when software gets mentioned, always been a software nut), so I'm going to try to shut up about that now.
     
  13. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Is this over yet ??

    If so, I'm glad............................. :banghead:
     
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  14. Boudica

    Boudica Member

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    :eek: Most of the reply's are soooo long, I don't have time to read them.
     
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  15. Andy D

    Andy D Very Active Member

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    oooohhhhh I just love-love-love the penis font!
    I use it on absolutely everything! I wish we had it as
    an option here!
    HEEEY, Mr.
    admin man, can you be a dear and add a penis font for me and the fellas? & while you're at it, give us more size options, the bigger the better!


    upload_2020-2-27_15-39-24.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  16. Boudica

    Boudica Member

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    I once came across a font call "UndyCrusties" I've always wanted to use it because the name is so funny. It's hard to read though.
     
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  17. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    They go by weight or stroke. The extra bold extended is a very popular one. Oops, I didn't say that. :corndog:
     
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